Posts by Gamaliel

19

Baptism 1973 and 1985 Questions hmmmmmmmmmm!

by Beans in

i was doing some research and noticed that the baptism questions were changed several times over the years.

the questions in 1973 were as follows: *** w73 5/1 280 baptizing follows discipling *** if you feel the same about serving jehovah god and taking christs yoke upon you, we suggest that you consider the following two questions, which are asked of candidates for baptism:.

(1) have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before jehovah god as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the father, through his son jesus christ?

Gamaliel

Beans,

(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovahs Witnesses in association with Gods spirit-directed organization?

What's the problem? You can't see that the Holy Spirit is made manifest in the organization?

All kidding aside, this is pretty blatant language. It explicity says that your baptism puts you with God's organization. Knowing that Mt 28 says to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit they have managed to create a Trinity of Jehovah, Jesus, and the Organization. In fact a sin against the Father or the Son is easily forgiven -- but a sin against the Organization is not forgiven. Just ask any average family of good JWs who have a relative who was disfellowshiped for immorality and another relative disfellowshipped for speaking out against the Organization. They will rarely admit it to outsiders, but JWs amongst themselves, both practically and philosophically, will still treat "apostasy" as a much greater sin than pedophilia. (And "apostasy" to JWs can mean someone decided to believe the Bible and accept Jesus Christ. Merely quoting John 3:16 amongst fellow JWs makes you an immediate apostasy suspect.)

Gamaliel

98

JW Father Kills Self and 12-year-old Son

by fjtoth in

the following story appears this morning in the south florida sun-sentinel at:.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-cmurdsui26aug26,1,2987431.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines.

fort lauderdale police suspect father killed son, then self in home shooting.

Gamaliel

What does these murders have to do with Jehovah's WItnesses? The man was an ass. And if I were to do a search on people who are a member of a chruch and who has killed others, i can guarantee I will find hundreds and even thousands before of newspaper and magazine articles before I find a murder-sucicide committed by a JW or at least an inactive W.

Joker10, I think the point has been made, but I think that JW elders are not trained as well in handling psychological issues. Some other religions with ordained ministers have them trained in psychiatry. My sister was raised in the "Truth" as I was. She was beaten so often I had to threaten the guy myself, even though I had already DA'd. My sister wanted to leave him, but my own father, one of the elders, recommended that she not leave him, but pray more, "draw closer to Jehovah", and become more active in service even though she was already pioneering (?!?!?!). My father and the other elders always told her it would bring reproach on the congregation if this ever got to outside authorities. Because the issue remained for a couple years, the Circuit Overseer got involved and gave the same recommendations. I have no idea what happened in this case, but the point you are trying to make about thousands of murder-suicides might not be as strong as you think. There are many cases that the WTS has successfully buried. One of my friends at Bethel was surprised in his new role in the Public Relations dept that there were something like 19 murders by JWs in his first year. Each one of these cases requires that communication open up between the local congregation and the Society so that in many cases they are disfellowshipped before trial or their relationship with JWs is minimized based on their recent activity. (The PR dept is also very careful to make sure the local elders appear to be the spokesmen rather than the Society itself.) As a JW I worked in prisons, conducting studies and even meetings, and we often met prisoners who had been and still considered themselves to be JWs. Also, one of my friends in the Writing Dept at Bethel, said he cringed every time we published the idea that JWs were better than Catholics with respect to crime, because he knew that "we were just as bad." Religion itself is usually a mitigating factor against divorce, family violence and crime compared to the general population, but the difference is often shown in studies to be much smaller than you might guess. (Religions have a tendency to maintain obsolete attitudes about submission of women and children that often backfires.) I have other reasons to think JW's might be about as bad as many other Christian religions, based on the number of JWs I know who suffer from depression and the constant measuring of spiritual worth based on specific works, peer pressure and guilt. Gamaliel

25

The New System of Things - How much longer?

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

this post isn't about "how much longer until the new system of things" arrives.

i'm wondering how much longer people will buy this load of crap?

the society has been telling the r&f that armageddon is right around the corner for 124 years now, and they're still using this method.

Gamaliel

Good thread Nosferatu,

John 21:23 says: Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee?

This was supposedly about the longest surviving apostle, John, who was supposed to live long enough so that the Matthew 16 prophecy would come true (see proplog2's comments). It reminds me of the GB all dying off and other JWs saying: "Well, they never actually said that the end would definitely come in their lifetime; they said, 'It might and it might not -- and if it does or doesn't, well, what's it to you, anyway?' " Even with the obvious false prophecy, NT Christianity has also survived, such as it is. No reason that JW's can't "run on empty" for quite a while. Proplog's 3 generation idea is interesting and warrants more discussion.

Gamaliel

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

Gamaliel

Alan,

:: The "Ransom Sacrifice" is one of the most perverse, incoherant and twisted religious ideas humankind has ever thought of. I have yet to find a Christian who can answer the above problems logically. Some find ways to skirt the issues, to be sure, but I'm talking about a logical presentation that answers all of the questions, as well as a number of others that also arise. Good luck if anyone wants to tackle it.

I believe my own version of Christianity is already considered perverse, incoherent and twisted, so I might be just the one to tackle this issue.

Sacrifices had two types of value in the context of Jewish and pagan religions that emphasized blood sacrifice:

1) The first ransom idea at the time was simply that something is sacrificed and the value of that thing will buy some kind of appeasement or propitiation from the God(s). A sheep or goat might appease a family's sins for a year. A couple of birds might appease a persons temporary sin (uncleanness) for something relatively minor. A bunch of bulls might appease a whole nation's uncleanness (Hezekiah). So the simplest idea was that the more valuable the sacrifice, the more valuable the scope of the atonement.

2) The blood and the specifics of several of the sacrifices had developed other meanings too. Animals already represented people vicariously, and priests represented the whole nation of people vicariously. The latter idea was convenient and practical because the priests who ate of the sacrifice actually ate vicariously for the whole nation. Otherwise, there would not be enough meat to go around, and this way, too, the Levites would all make a decent living even though almost all of them had the same job: kosher butchers. So another purchasing value of the sacrifice is that it meant that the whole nation would eat. In some sense this represented the "fertility" of the nation which explains "first-born" animals, "first-fruits" of grain, etc, and the biggest sacrifices were, of course, at planting time and harvest time.

Now on the value of the sacrifice of Jesus, John's gospel had deified Jesus from the opening verse, so by the time he gets to: "for God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son..." the meaning of ransom in part 1 above is obvious. The better the sacrifice the bigger the atonment. A sacrificed god (John 1:1) ought to propitiate for entire world.

The other meanings and value that had been attached to idea of the sacrifice was that by participating in the sacrifice you were buying your livelihood, paying a small ransom as a bet against the whims of the gods. Storms and droughts and locust plagues were possible, but your harvest would still come in, your family would be fed, if you placed the bet against God's anger. You were purchasing a blessing from the gods, at least for the next season. This idea wasn't lost on the Gospels either. The eating and drinking of Jesus body and blood by anyone (who all are priests now) provides eternal life for all seasons.

Of course, most Christians want to make sense of Paul's comments about one man Adam and one man Jesus corresponding somehow. That's where most of the trouble comes from. Otherwise we can find enough answers in any Jewish, Mithraic, or other sacrifice-oriented religion.

Of course, I don't think a Christian has to make much of the sacrifice theory, because Jesus did not live up to these deified expectations of John or others. In a sense, however, his sacfrice was quite valuable in that it leaves us on our own again. We are left to wonder whether God has forsaken us, as Jesus did. We are on our own. We must find new lessons that learn from the false hopes and mistakes of Jesus followers (imo).

The closest thing to a practical ransom that Jesus might have actually provided was to delay the violent takeover of Jerusalem/Judea/Palestine by Rome. As the Sadducees commented: it is better for one man to die than for Rome to come and take away our [Temple and] nation. Ironically, even that ransom didn't work very well. (I'm talking about the literal story here, not whether such a plot by the priests ever really happened.) His followers made a martyr out of him and the Christians (in the story) were able to indict the highest levels of Rome (Paul v. Caesar) and the highest levels of the Jerusalem Temple cult (Sadducees Annas, Caiphus, etc.). Christians were partially vindicated, but when that vindication evolved into vindictive hopes against Rome (e.g., Revelation), those hopes failed. But love never failed.

In my own thinking, there was no real ransom, per se, but there was a great value to his sacrifice in that Jesus is described as knowing what the plotters were up to yet he had a message that was so important he realized that it was worth more than his life, so he still declared as openly as possible. He knew the danger to himself, his reputation, but he managed to find a way that declared the message from the rooftops, to a maximum number of people whom he was sure needed to hear it. Even though he encouraged others to have the same kind of love for others that would risk their own life if necessary to serve others, yet it worked out that he alone took the punishment.

How'd I do?

Gamaliel

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

Gamaliel

seven006,

I believe that how a person structures his spiritual belief system has more to do with where they were born and where they live than any kind of spiritual calling. If this DB was created in China or India the discussions would be similar but the mythical religious figures we talk about would be different.

I think you are absolutely correct. I identify myself as a Christian because I can still use the core elements from the Christian storybook as a touchstone to define all of my remaining beliefs in spirituality. Under different circumstances, I might be going on about elements in some other religion which I would pick and choose to provide a viable spiritual structure. But for now, for myself and amongst most of my neighbors, Christianity still provides the most immediate framework to help categorize new spiritual ideas as to whether they are already a part of my defined spirituality, or if they can be subsumed within it, or if they are unworthy in comparison or are, perhaps, superior to it. It's much the same way a person might describe themselves as a Keynesian economist amidst a current playing field of economic permutations that can never again allow an ideal Keynesian system. Yet analogies based on Keynes in the context of systems of his time can also provide valuable analogies for comparison among systems that hadn't even been tried in his day.

The thought that we were all born in sin keeps the meek, humble and gullible in line. We all have the ability to know what is right and wrong. Blaming Satan for things you do wrong or thanking god for things you do right keeps people from realizing the personal potential and self worth. Eliminating ones self worth and independence is the key to religious control. Own their minds and their bodies will follow.

This gets right to the point of the thread title. However, I think there are other lessons in the Christian story that are much more important than a teaching that we are "born in sin." My earlier examples from John and Luke about whether it was sin that made the boy born blind, or sin that caused the tower to fall and kill some people, tells me that this idea must not have been a core part of Jesus' teaching. I am a literalist when I read the story, and if some ideas from later apostles have proved literally wrong, then that's part of the "moral of the story." They were simply wrong!

I agree that Paul tried to promote a version of the ransom story, for example. But he premised it (I don't know why, exactly) on the idea that Jesus had literally been resurrected, that if the resurrection didn't happen, then we are without hope in the world. Then he stuck his neck out and spoke of what that hope entailed (rapture, last days, imminent judgment day, etc.). It didn't happen. But the core of Jesus teaching wasn't premised on a ransom. The core of Jesus teaching was what Paul had to admit: that faith can fail, that hope (resurrection?) can fail -- but love never fails. Love is the purest motivator of spirituality. Put another way, as James said: "the purest form of religion is to look after suffering orphans and widows." For others, of course, that love will motivate different activities -- but as a system of spirituality, the "love motivation" is the remaining core of Christianity.

Sorry for the sermon, but I think the real, core lessons from the Christian story are very empowering. I doubt my "twisted" version of Christianity has much chance of catching on, but I have faith that if it (or something like it) did catch on, then ultimately, love (for our neighbor) can motivate against militaristic/corporate greed, for example, and thereby help extend the life of the planet as a home. It could promote the creation of medicine and healing practices that reduce pain and suffering -- so I also see salvation in this teaching. You are right that we don't have to call it Christianity -- but that's where I happened to find this teaching.

Gamaliel

151

Christianity promotes a helpless victim mentality...

by logansrun in

i'm going to be a man of few words here.

christianity, in it's truest, fundamentalist form, promotes an unhealthy and non-productive victim mentality.

the christian feels helpless on his own -- condemned by sin and absolutely unworthy.

Gamaliel

mizpah,

The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, Reformation, modern Science, modern Democracy, etc. all came out of those nations who professed Christian belief. Evidently, the "helpless victim mentality" of Christianity did not prevent these movements from florishing. Rather, Christianity seems to be the medium which produced them.

I agree with most of sentiment here (the modern university, for example, came out of Catholic scholastic practices) but I couldn't help but notice a lot of irony in your choices. Especially if you are talking about typically organized Christianity.

The Renaissance

What was resurrected or "re-birthed" so that it was called a "re-naissance"? It was the re-discovery that non-Christian (pagan) worshippers of Greek and Roman gods actually had already understood the beginnings of science and art several centuries before Jesus. Perhaps we should ask: What interrupted that growth of science and art for at least a millenium?

the Enlightenment

See comments on Renaissance. Ask yourself, too, what steps Christians took to extinguish every new "light" the Enlightenment attempted to shine. The ideas of the Enlightenment had been attempted throughout the centuries since the beginning of Christianity and resulted in torture and death to many. Only when anti-Christian ideas could finally reach "critical mass" and atheists could finally speak out with less fear from the Church, did history dare to name it "Enlightenment." Who was in charge of the so-called "Dark Ages" and how many Christian names can you find among the stars of the "Enlightenment."

Reformation

Reformation from what? Oh, from another form of Christianity that held power for the previous 12 centuries, or so.

modern Science

Hmmm. The non-Christian, pagan Greeks have already been given a lot of credit here with reference to the Renaissance. But the Muslim Arabs should get at least as much credit for resurrecting the ideas of modern science unless you are perhaps crediting the Christian Crusades as one of the means of bringing Muslim science to the Christian masses. But then again, I notice that you never listed the Crusades, specifically.

modern Democracy

I certainly hope your not blaming that on Christianity, too. Don't get me wrong here, I love the idea of democracy, but modern Democracy has about as much to do with democracy as Socrates and Plato did (two of the best-known enemies of democracy.)

Evidently, the "helpless victim mentality" of Christianity did not prevent these movements from florishing.

No, but it certainly tried, and successfully for over 1,000 years at that.

Rather, Christianity seems to be the medium which produced them.

Seems a lot like giving the USSR credit for producing Alexander Soljenitsin.

Gamaliel

19

Did the Watchtower Society Construction Crews in Brooklyn Bury Some Bodies?

by Gamaliel in

well this isn't exactly what you might think, but i have the following information based on what i consider good authority.

still, it's without a shred of hard evidence.

i am bringing it up now before the watchtower society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

Gamaliel

I have found a couple other places where such rumors might have started. Someone recalled that there was some additional construction work around the already completed Squibb Bldgs (30 C.H.) that revealed some things that were unexpected and that they didn't know how to dispose of legally. (May have involved disposal of items that Squibb had stored -- chemicals, vitamins, etc.) There was no legal reason to stop construction work.

The natural progression in the life of rumors could have leaped from "if they found this around Squibb, imagine what they would have found in the brand new digging on a fresh construction site nearby."

Also, I just got an uncannily similar report that happened on a KH construction site elsewhere in Brooklyn around the same time period, which may have fed these rumors. I have a first hand witness to that KH issue, who decided to look into the matter further even though the exact same reasons for keeping quiet were given. There were no human bones in the case of the KH, only a suspicion that they had come across something of historical interest. Can't say more, without risking exposure of privacy, but there turned out to be no legal reason for halting construction in either of the cases I've just mentioned.

I'm still interested, of course, if anyone has more details, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was all built on the "foundations" already mentioned.

Gamaliel

19

Did the Watchtower Society Construction Crews in Brooklyn Bury Some Bodies?

by Gamaliel in

well this isn't exactly what you might think, but i have the following information based on what i consider good authority.

still, it's without a shred of hard evidence.

i am bringing it up now before the watchtower society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

Gamaliel

There were also rumors that there were some serious mistakes made when computers were first being installed at Bethel.

You can say that again. My roommate was one of the first people brought in to work on them. A good friend from back in our circuit was also brought in. From what they could gather, mistakes were costing millions unnecessarily. IBM was laughing at us. We thought we could use one of the first ones installed (a Series 1 mini) to run an APS-5 typesetting machine. That project alone wasted a million. Of course, I've also been in companies since then that have thrown away multiple projects that cost upwards of 10 million each. It's just that you expect that the Holy Spirit would do better than an idiot CIO.

I think the biggest embarrassment was the huge metal-plate printing press, that was so big they claimed there was a gravitational pull that made it too hard to control the pressure between the plates and the rollers and therefore the ink pressure on the page was always off. (I don't know if the problem was really gravity but they say you can measure the gravitational pull between two of those large steel wrecking balls when they are hanging very close to each other on two adjacent cranes)

I used to show that massive new press proudly in my Bethel visitor tours and Gilead Student tours, and was always told to say it would be working in just another month or so. After a few more months, we were asked not to make any comments about it any more. I always wondered if the purchase of this neo-dinosaur press (against the wishes of those who said it was time to move to "offset" printing) contributed to Brother Wheelock's suicide. (He was a factory overseer, and someone I saw almost every day.)

Gamaliel

28

JW and Christianity..

by cutenconfuzed422 in

hey, i'm new to this site, but i'm looking for the big differences between christianity and jehovah's witnesses.

i would like any information you have, and references to it if you have references.

thanks a lot.

Gamaliel

I agree with Joker and pinoy and others.

Meg get an accurate picture.
Don't be too gullible as to believe everything posted here.

If something seems hard to believe ALWAYS ASK FOR EVIDENCE. That's where I've always found the biggest difference, in general, between the JWs and the exJWs. Also, I agree with what Craig said, it seems that you'll find a lot more exJWs who love JWs than vice versa. Gamaliel

84

The US military INTENTIONALLY KILLS innocent people??? Where?? When???

by Stan Conroy in

this question was posed by yeru in another post.

i have no interest in getting involved in that post, but this is an interesting question.

supporters of the us feel that there country alone is on the moral high ground, and incapable of such an act.

Gamaliel

the war did range on for many years after the bomb was dropped

Are you in some alternate universe with a different history? If it did go on for years then how can you declare that it ended the war? That doesn't make sense

Simon,

I think it would have made more sense if you had noticed that the "rolling eyes" might have applied to that part of the post, too.

Gamaliel