That reminds me, is anyone here also on the NYC area exJW list for meetup.com? I have missed the last couple chances to meet, and wanted to make the next one. (Fair warning )
Gamaliel
Gamaliel
JoinedPosts by Gamaliel
-
100
Who Would You Enjoy Having Lunch With?----- Drinking With???
by minimus intyydyy mentioned in a different thread about wanting to have lunch or drinks with a person, if he could.
who on board would you enjoy getting together with??
?
-
-
-
90
WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge
by Gamaliel ingamaliel report, september 2003: .
the source of the 606 and 607 bce date for nebuchadnezzar's destruction of jerusalem was originally based on misunderstanding ptolemy and some poor biblical exegesis.
interestingly, a lot more jehovah's witnesses are now aware of second adventist origins for c.t.russell's ideas.
-
-
Gamaliel
In addition to the word "doubtless" the brother I mentioned in my last post included, in his list: "undoubtedly, without a doubt, without question, no doubt, etc." After realizing the exact meaning of these words and phrases, it is almost comical to read the Aid book, Insight book, and past Watchtowers that have discussed history and chronology, especially.
As a followup on the Russell "doubtless" comment: here's a link below to the word in the actual article, and a brief excerpt:
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/JWGentileTimesRussell55.htm
(The Bible Examiner Vol. XXI, No., October 1876, pages 27-28.
GENTILE TIMES: WHEN DO THEY END?
BY CHARLES. T. RUSSELL
"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."?Luke xxi. 24.
Doubtless our Lord intended to communicate to His disciples some knowledge, and possibly it was addressed more to the disciples in our day, than to the early church.
Let us then search what times the prophecy, which was in Christ, did signify. Of course, if it be one of the secret things of God, we cannot find out; but if a secret, why should Jesus mention it? If, on the contrary, it is revealed it belongs to us. Shall we guess and suppose?
Gamaliel
-
90
WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge
by Gamaliel ingamaliel report, september 2003: .
the source of the 606 and 607 bce date for nebuchadnezzar's destruction of jerusalem was originally based on misunderstanding ptolemy and some poor biblical exegesis.
interestingly, a lot more jehovah's witnesses are now aware of second adventist origins for c.t.russell's ideas.
-
-
Gamaliel
scholar, cholars, holarsc, olarsch, larscho, EUREKA!! ârsc höl, (just teasing, of course)
"Sacred" chronology? Sacre bleu! More like scarred, creased, crashed, crushed, desacrated.
But I think the most accurate word would have been simply "incredible" chronology. It's like someone asked the Watchtower Society if, on a bet, they could promote a chronology that would appear to be the exact opposite of "faithful and discreet."
I have a trivia question for you. Do you know the first word Charles Taze Russell published? (Bible Examiner, following the Title: Gentile Times: When Do They End? and the scripture subtitle)
(see below..)
.
.
.
.
Russell's first article started out with the word "Doubtless." This word also has a long history of unfaithful and indiscreet usage in Watchtower literature. A friend of mine in the Bethel Writing department once asked me to think about how this word, ironically, always means that there really is some measure of doubt. Usually it is a synonym for the following phrase: "There exists a measure of doubt that we would rather hope you can just ignore for the purposes of the argument that immediately follows:"
I understand that you are loosely using the word "sacred" as an opposite to the word "secular" but that's still rather indiscreet, wouldn't you say?
Gamaliel
-
24
Family Merit / Demerit - Core Watchtower Doctrine - says FDS
by garybuss inthe watchtower sept. 15, 1976 pages 575-6 questions from readers
questions from readers
first corinthians
-
-
Gamaliel
garyb,
Brilliant as usual. My brother and I were baptized at 12 and 10 respectively (back in '67). My sister was 5 years younger but was putting it off a bit until closer to or even after 1975. My parents wouldn't hear of it. We were too close to 1975 and we all had to be prepared to "stand on our own" at Armageddon. She gave in, and it probably had a lot to do with determining the type of education and job and husband she would have -- right up to this very day.
I don't know if anyone has ever commented on it, but in 1972 there was an impression that many old-time JWs will agree with, that many teenagers children were rushed into baptism by 1973 and 1974. But there was a rash of disfellowshippings and "public reproofs," not because of 1975 directly, but especially in 1973 and 1974 because of teen-age immorality. Some elders were actually thinking that it was better to disfellowship them in 1973 and 1974 because they would still have a shot at shaping up and getting back in again by 1975.
I just thought of something that I never connected to this before now. The pre-1975 thinking was so warped that I remember one case where a disfellowshipped teen was killed in a car wreck in 1974 and everyone who mentioned it always invariably added that there was a "Truth book" in the back of the wrecked car, so it was obvious he was trying to get back in with Jehovah. I know that the person who started this message (or rumor?) about the Truth book was one of the elders who disfellowshipped the teen. I'm wondering now whether there wasn't a psychological motivation to the rumor.
Gamaliel
-
90
WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge
by Gamaliel ingamaliel report, september 2003: .
the source of the 606 and 607 bce date for nebuchadnezzar's destruction of jerusalem was originally based on misunderstanding ptolemy and some poor biblical exegesis.
interestingly, a lot more jehovah's witnesses are now aware of second adventist origins for c.t.russell's ideas.
-
-
Gamaliel
slippy,
I added a few more forum links besides alleymom's K.I.S.S. Enjoy.
setfreefinally,
Somehow I got it in my mind that you were the one who asked about the alleymom link, which made a lot less sense when I saw that you had already participated in so many of those threads.
I appreciate everyones work in ferreting out the "truth". I try to keep an open mind when reading but it is hard to keep from laughing hysterically with all the good natured kidding, backstabbing, backbiting, and belittleing with all the disparaging remarks going on. Keep up the good work folks!
"607 defenders" are becoming a rarer breed among JWs. We've only got one or two left on the forum and they must be fed and protected so they keep coming back. Not to give away any secrets, but there are certain personality types that will only keep coming back to the flame if it's set somewhere between simmering and seething. If that flame is extinguished that rare breed becomes extinct.
Gamaliel
-
90
WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge
by Gamaliel ingamaliel report, september 2003: .
the source of the 606 and 607 bce date for nebuchadnezzar's destruction of jerusalem was originally based on misunderstanding ptolemy and some poor biblical exegesis.
interestingly, a lot more jehovah's witnesses are now aware of second adventist origins for c.t.russell's ideas.
-
-
Gamaliel
scholar,
The issue of the date, edition, printing or even reference "style" is not terribly important, and I don't see that you did anything wrong in the way you referenced the book. I can assume that you didn't know or notice that there were two printings, nor did either you or Alan know that the difference in printings was significant to this particular discussion until now. But I think we all realize that such attention to detail is more important to AlanF, especially when dates are involved. I have been very appreciative of Alan's attention to such detail when I was looking into issues with respect to Russell's writings. Alan knew of many of the differences between the various editions of Russell's 6 volumes of SiTS. Even in this very thread, you'll notice that Alan pointed out the various editions of Elliott's work, spanning several years. Sometimes this attention to detail doesn't seem very important at first, but I'm glad someone cares enough for these details..
I think that what IS still obvious is that you have still missed the very important point about the content of your argument. You also appear to be quite anxious to discredit Jonsson, with all this your hyperbole about a "historical blunder made by Franz and Jonsson" and having "shown themselves incompetent." At least you are honest with your goal in attempting to use such minutae to promote your rhetoric: "How then can Jonsson be trusted...?" These attempts are becoming more and more laughable, however, as they keep misfiring and backfiring on your own beloved Watchtower Society. Normally you just keep shooting yourself in the foot until you don't have a leg to stand on. But this time, you are putting holes in your Holy Watchtower Society.
Keep on shooting!
Gamaliel
-
90
WTS Chronology(Oslo Hypothesis) from Vicar;Trinity College Fellow,Cambridge
by Gamaliel ingamaliel report, september 2003: .
the source of the 606 and 607 bce date for nebuchadnezzar's destruction of jerusalem was originally based on misunderstanding ptolemy and some poor biblical exegesis.
interestingly, a lot more jehovah's witnesses are now aware of second adventist origins for c.t.russell's ideas.
-
-
Gamaliel
s
etfreefinallippy, (edited so that no one will know that I mistakenly addressed the first copy of this to someone else, when I meant to address it to slippy. Sorry, I was sloppy, slippy.)In addition to the excellent thread AlanF pointed out ( > 586/587 the K.I.S.S. approach --- no VAT4956, Ptolemy, Josephus needed ) note, too, Alleymom and AlanF both participated nicely in several of these other threads below. (
So have you, I see. edited 10/8/03) These are my favorites on chronology:Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson (It went on for 14 pages, 265 posts, and 8,900+ views, as of today)
Anything written by Org. that has Nabonidus' years of rule.
Seventy years Desolation- History or Myth
The SEVEN TIMES of Daniel Chapter 4
Interesting quote - October 1, 98 WT (starting part-way through, about here: at this post.)
Need a little help on 607 586/587....
So, where DID the 1914 timeline go awry?
When did Battle of Carchemish take place?
Why Aren't Jehovah's Witnesses Allowed To Freely Express Themselves? (starting part-way through at hillary_step's post: here:)
Gamaliel
[edited the first few times to get the links right, the last time (hopefully) to address the right person]
-
13
Isaiah's Prophecy and it's fulfillment in 1919 (yeah right).
by integ ini have been reading the isaiah book part 2, the book the witnesses are studying right now at the book study.
in this book they everything has a modern day fulfillment...with them.
just as in the revelation book, where the 7 trumpet blasts are referred to as being bible student conventions in the 1920's.
-
-
Gamaliel
Even though we're not supposed to do this, Amazing did such a good job that I'm going to try to get away with reposting what he put over there on that link I gave above:
(From Amazing)
I did a review of the JFR (Joseph Franklin Rutherford) trial. I have the entire trial transcript, including the meeting transcript from the pre-trial hearing and in judges chambers.
Simply put: The Watchtower officers were not railroaded off to prison. They were guilty of subversion. The Society had plenty of time to build a case, but missused their time to try and influence the US Attorney to drop the case. Rutherford even had a friend on the jury that convicted them ... AND ... most important, they were NOT EXONERATED ... but rather, were released on a writ of error that the trial Judge permitted because he was leinient. Since the war was over, the government had no interest in putting JFR & company back on trial. The ENTIRE Watchtower interpretation of the trial is a bold-faced lie and has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.
I gave a talk on this at the 2002 BRCI ... but I did not complete the series because it did not interest very many people on the board. You can click below to get what I did to date:
Part 2a: JFR Trial - Judges Chambers
Part 2b: JFR Trial - Judges Chambers - C...
Part 2c: JFR Trial - Judges Chambers
Part 2d: JFR Trial - Judges Chambers
Part 3: JFR Trial - The Indictment (Good)
Part 4a: JFR Trial - Jury Selection
Part 4b: JFR Trial - Jury Selection (Cont'd)
Part 4c: JFR Trial ... Criticizing the Government
Part 4d: JFR Trial - The Surprise
Part 5a: JFR Trial - 1st Witness
Again, there is much, much more that shows this whole issue to be another Watchtower sham. So, if there seems to be interest, then I will resume the review of the trial. - Jim Whitney
PS: The "Finished Mystery" book available today is missing he pages that offended the Government. The Society agreed to remove the offending pages to please the Government. It would be a rare find to get a copy of the original publication. Further, it was not really the FM book that caused the trial ... rather is was the letters by the Society officers to members of the Armed Forces on active duty that was the real crux of the trial.
-
13
Isaiah's Prophecy and it's fulfillment in 1919 (yeah right).
by integ ini have been reading the isaiah book part 2, the book the witnesses are studying right now at the book study.
in this book they everything has a modern day fulfillment...with them.
just as in the revelation book, where the 7 trumpet blasts are referred to as being bible student conventions in the 1920's.
-
-
Gamaliel
Your best best would be to start with the work Amazing (Jim) did over here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/59549/1.ashx
After that it would be interesting to see just how many other groups were scrutinized in 1918 over the same "Sedition Act."
Gamaliel
-
28
Belief-o-matic test
by qwerty ini know i know this as been done before , i fink!
http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
if you haven't taken the test before, give it a go see how far down the list if at all jw is.
-
-
Gamaliel
2. Liberal Quakers (97%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (93%) 4. Theravada Buddhism (86%) 5. Mahayana Buddhism (80%) 6. New Age (79%) 7. Neo-Pagan (77%) 8. Secular Humanism (73%) 9. Jainism (70%) 10. Taoism (69%) 11. Bahá'í Faith (67%) 12. Orthodox Quaker (61%) 13. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (57%) 14. Sikhism (55%) 15. Hinduism (54%) 16. Nontheist (54%) 17. New Thought (50%) 18. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (48%) 19. Reform Judaism (44%) 20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (43%) 21. Scientology (38%) 22. Jehovah's Witness (37%) 23. Seventh Day Adventist (32%) 24. Orthodox Judaism (31%) 25. Islam (29%) 26. Eastern Orthodox (20%) 27. Roman Catholic (20%)1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)