Out since '82, but mostly just lurked on H2O. Rarely posted until it was nearly over. Much more active on Philia and a very frustrating "Fundie channel" (d) when I finally started posting regularly. (Plus a couple of calmer mailing lists which were much more conducive to making friends with other H2O members.)
Gamaliel
JoinedPosts by Gamaliel
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57
Who here is still left from h20?
by GermanXJW ini wonder how many here have already posted on the old h20 hourglass outpost-board?
it started to be a reform website and was one of the first sites i dared to register.
took some time for me to see the truth.
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44
Comments from "30 Years a Watchtower Slave" that surprised me.....
by AK - Jeff ini had begun to read schnell's book when we first left - but in the 'fresh out of the borg' mental state, i had found it too caustic.
now i am reading it and find it quite interesting due to the time frame - in judge rutherford's era.. one of the premises that he states repeatedly in the book, took me by surprise.
i would be curious if any could confirm/deny the reality of his accusations here.
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Gamaliel
I had a table head at Bethel who was ambivalent about Rutherford on some days, but never got over his dislike of Rutherford during the majority of times the subject came up. He claims that Rutherford would announce in advance certain territories in NJ that were especially chosen to try to get them placed in jail for the night. Rutherford was the first person he remembers making the joke that they better take their tooth brushes along.
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Game - bizarre word origins
by jgnat inhubby tells me the new study book will soon be covering the cross vs stake issue.
the wtbts primarily clings to the stake based on word origins.
i thought it might be fun to collect other word origins, and ask our jw friends if they also, should be taken literally?.
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Gamaliel
silly - related to blessed, sometimes even pious, religious
##silly - (cf. O.N. sæll "happy," Goth. sels "good, kindhearted," O.S. salig , M.Du. salich , O.H.G. salig , Ger. selig "blessed, happy, blissful"),
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Dan Sydlik dies, the last of the moderating forces.
by SadElder inour good friend dan sydlik died today about 2 pm eastern time.
he was the last of the moderating forces on the gb.
lately he has had little influence among the ted (aka the boss) jaracz (head of the bethel cia - the service department) henchmen and loyalists.
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Gamaliel
Most of the time at Bethel (4 years from 1976-1980) I didn't know what to think of Dan Sydlik.
At first, I agreed with those who called him Pope Sydlik, and that was before the world actually got a Polish Pope who, in some ways, reminded me of Dan Sydlik. What remained of his Polish accent, combined with a powerful voice yet intentionally un-polished grammar, gave him a down-to-earth, sincere quality. I liked him for that, but always felt that one of his more clever qualities was an ability to mask an excessive haughtiness under a cloak of mock humility. But that cloak was liable to become transparent when he was angry, some discovered.
In the Bethel setting I thought his manner worked well for the many new recruits, especially. He could easily descend to the level of sergeant when talking to the young men as privates (or, on at least one occasion I witnessed, "about" their privates). Jaracz would never condescend below a rank of general. Like opposite Poles, I thought.
For me personally, he did give me the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I doubt he had any doubt that I had grave doubts. It was known to him that I regularly attended Bible studies in the room of a member of the Writing Department. Some of my best friends had just been disfellowshipped in a few cases and exiled from Bethel in other cases, with other cases pending. By that time my intent to leave Bethel was already known and I knew that what was left of my future at Bethel would be a matter of exactly how pointedly they worded the current set of apostate-hunting questions. The wording of their questions would decide if I left with an honorable or dishonorable discharge. (No connection to Sydlik's infamous speeches to the "newbie" recruits about a more private form of "dishonorable discharge.")
I must have talked too openly and with too many people about my beliefs about 1914, 607, 144,000, great crowd, personal vs organizational responsibility, faith vs works, Bible discussion vs Watchtower discussion, etc., etc., etc. He wanted to speak with me about it and called me into his office. When he brought up a few of those issues I shrugged them off by saying: "Oh those issues are just things I like to talk about because they make for some great Bible discussions. I've already seen that I have to be very careful about those subjects so that nobody misunderstands my position. I love Jehovah and I love his Organization. What I really hoped we could talk about is what you recommend for someone like me. You know I'm getting married. I'll be looking for a job. I really would like to know what you think I should do." (Of course, I knew I was being very misleading, but it was as honest as I thought I could be at the time. This version of double-speak became the practice of many inside "apostates." It was all the more necessary as we saw ourselves getting assigned every talk on Organization or every Watchtower study on 1914, which had become uncomfortably frequent for everyone, not just "apostates.")
Dan seemed relieved and he absolutely loved the opportunity to pontificate, I mean, to offer his opinions about marriage and secular work. I actually enjoyed this conversation very much, and he seemed very sincere about wanting to help. He didn't try to be overly spiritual. I never had any reason to think that he was anything but down-to-earth, open and honest. So I have never had any reason to hold any grudges or ill-will about his place in the Watchtower hierarchy. Yes, I think he should have known better after 80-some years of life experience. But I didn't know any better either for a couple decades and might still be trapped within if it weren't for some fortunate discussions with others. I've learned more about Dan Sydlik from Ray Franz, especially from his books. But Ray Franz, who I admire, was also trapped within that system for most of his life. Lyman Swingle also saw wrongs, but thought he could do more good from within than from outside. Some good friends in the Writing Department also thought it was better to try to stay to do more good from within.
But while in, it is so difficult to see the bigger picture. The organization concept was still too deeply embedded in us even when we fooled ourselves into believing we had surmounted the issue. At least in my case, while inside, I thought I could see, but I was still blind. I don't think there is such a big difference among those at any level or position within that organization.
Sincerely,
Gamaliel
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Racial Slurs from the GB
by Poztate inanother post that i was on triggered a memory of something that happened in the late 60's???
two members of the gb... in canada were on the platform.they obviously knew each other quite well.
one offered to the other that he was good for a....can't remember the (insult brit type) laugh that was raised but even then i thought it was out of line.
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Gamaliel
Karl Klein gave a talk about the following conversation between Abraham and Jehovah.
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WT Letter about elders' sins
by IT Support insomeone recently posted a topic which included a link to a wt letter to bodies of elders.
the letter stated that if an elder confessed to having committed a serious (i.e.
disfellowshippable) sin a number of years ago, and nobody knew about it, he need not be removed.
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Gamaliel
I believe it was in a letter which I don't have. But it was also referenced in a km question from the mid 70's (I think) and is therefore on the Watchtower CD. I will try to find it tonight. Gamaliel
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Rutherford Exposed: The Story of Berta and Bonnie
by Farkel init was made by a women who in later years wore crotchless panties and bras which had holes in the nipple areas.
he not only knew the woman in question (she's now deceased), he has met her numerous times.
up until recently this secret of her year's long sexual affair with rutherford was kept by the family.
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Gamaliel
Just a few more "web" tidbits:
I couldn't find the picture of Jr's Southampton house, but some pictures of Eugene Black are here: http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/HRS/yournet.nsf/WB+History+022302?OpenPage with the following note in one entry:
February 19, 1992 ?Former World Bank President Eugene Black dies in Southampton, N.Y. at the age of 93.
I don't remember the exact addresses very well, but after reviewing some info here and elsewhere it appears that William H Black Jr lived at 226 Toylsome Ln, Southampton while his father ERBlack, Jr, lived (and died) at 330 Meeting House Lane, Southampton.
JUNIOR
The U of G bio was posted. ERBlack, Jr, even made the Encyclopedia Britannica online: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9000587&hook=108341
He even has dispatches that were printed in Time magazine, he was a regular correspondent for Time in the 50s. Sometimes just as "Gene Black".
However, I don't believe anyone posted the World Bank's small bio for Jr, although I might have missed it. It's actually in pieces all over the site, but here's a portion:
Eugene Black was born on May 1, 1898 into a well-known Georgia banking family. He graduated from the University of Georgia, winning his Phi Beta Kappa key as a junior. During World War I he served as an officer in the U.S. Navy in the Atlantic. After the war Mr. Black went into finance and eventually became a senior Vice President of the Chase National Bank.
SENIOR
Also note that Eugene Sr served two terms on the Fed Reserve of Atlanta,
01/13/1928 - 05/18/1933 (1st term)
08/16/1934 - 12/19/1934 (2nd term)
this site: http://www.stlouisfed.org/about/fed_presidents.html, says he died in office.
THE THIRD
ERBlack III wrote his own little bio that's on amazon.com. I happen to have a Broadway Playbill, btw, that contains his name.
Eugene Robert Black's detective novel is a gem of its genre. It is rip roaring entertainment. He is one of the rising stars of the mystery/adventure novel. Two other books are scheduled for release early next year. The author has written under the names of Franklyn MacGregor and Ashley Cooper. --This text refers to the Paperback edition.
From the Author I have lived a life of multiple occupations which has taken me into many adventures around the world. Although a work of fiction, many of the experiences are actual. I have written six novels, 17 plays and several screen plays. I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, and educated at Yale University and Oxford University, England. I was a General Partner of international investment banking firm for many years. I have also lived in Brazil and France with my wife and three children. --This text refers to the Paperback edition.Book Description The Madagascar Corundum, a large heart-shaped ruby set in a brooch with emeralds and diamonds by an Italian Renaissance artist, has come into the hands of a prominent jeweler, Charles Kukorin, who bought it for three million dollars from the Emir of Madagascar, and is reselling it to a young Long Island millionaire for four. The millionaire, Henry Rubenstein, has asked that it be delivered to his Southhampton estate
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1585000795/bridgebooks/104-2299360-5920760 (The Madagascar Corundum) -
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Rutherford Exposed: The Story of Berta and Bonnie
by Farkel init was made by a women who in later years wore crotchless panties and bras which had holes in the nipple areas.
he not only knew the woman in question (she's now deceased), he has met her numerous times.
up until recently this secret of her year's long sexual affair with rutherford was kept by the family.
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Gamaliel
Merry,
I wonder if the William H Black mentioned in Leolaia's research as a brother of Eugene R Black III and son of Eugene R Black, Jr is the same as the William Heath Black that this site ( www.namebase.org/main1/Eugene-Robert-Black.html ) says is mentioned on p.518 of The House of Morgan by R. Chernow? (Named after a favorite uncle perhaps?) And is this/are these the same as the person mentioned here on the SEC site?...
I am pretty sure you are right on the first count, and his middle name would have also been his mother's maiden "middle" name, of course, as well as his uncle's surname. On the second count, it doesn't seem as likely. The family has had its share of investment bankers. Many investment brokers were sued for losses by their clients after the tech bubble burst, but the William Heath Black I knew was nearing retirement 20 years ago. I assume it's a doppelganger.
I should note that there are many cases of this kind of research exist all over the Internet, where a conspiratorial feeding frenzy is nourished by the mere fact that two rich families marry each other. In fact, it is very common practice. Among a small group of JWs in the rural area where I grew up there were only two "rich" JW families within hundreds of miles. Guess what? They found each other and married each other. Rich families tend to marry other rich families, and it seems to be more newsworthy only when they don't.
When one adds "Jehovah's Witness" to the filtering criteria for potential marriage mates, then the rich JW is likely going to find another rich JW. Yet, it might be completely innocent. The witness wedding I went to for Abby Black in Southampton would also provide fodder for this type of gossip. The brother she married was also from a well-to-do JW family, and some thought it was therefore a totally "arranged" marriage. But, in fact, as far as I could see, they dated for quite a while and it was, in my opinion, a very sweet, romantic relationship.
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747
Rutherford Exposed: The Story of Berta and Bonnie
by Farkel init was made by a women who in later years wore crotchless panties and bras which had holes in the nipple areas.
he not only knew the woman in question (she's now deceased), he has met her numerous times.
up until recently this secret of her year's long sexual affair with rutherford was kept by the family.
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Gamaliel
If anyone is interested, an example of the McFadden information is found here:
http://iresist.com/cbg/mcfadden.html
Also one of the best bios of E.R.Black Sr is found below (although almost entirely unrelated to the discussion here however).
In full size, they can be found here:
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/ebind2html.pl/reed_c10?seq=122
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/ebind2html.pl/reed_c10?seq=123
http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/cgi-bin/ebind2html.pl/reed_c10?seq=124
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747
Rutherford Exposed: The Story of Berta and Bonnie
by Farkel init was made by a women who in later years wore crotchless panties and bras which had holes in the nipple areas.
he not only knew the woman in question (she's now deceased), he has met her numerous times.
up until recently this secret of her year's long sexual affair with rutherford was kept by the family.
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Gamaliel
I don't know how appropriate it is to bring all this up in a thread which attempts to expose Rutherford, but I will add my two cents worth.
I have met Eugene R Black, Jr and his wife Susette Heath Black. I have stayed at their house. The last time my wife and I saw them was at their granddaughter's wedding in Southampton, Long Island, about 1980. This is the daughter of William H Black, the younger son of both E.R.Black, Jr and Susette -- not Eugene R. Black Jr's older son, E.R.Black III.
The granddaughter's name is Abigail. I also knew her mother and brothers fairly well. In fact, I spent some time with Abby and her friends almost every weekend for about three years. I had taken the trip out to Southampton to visit Abby and her younger brother while I was at Bethel in Brooklyn. I've spent the night there more than once, and even learned to water ski behind one of their boats with Abby's oldest brother, William, at the helm.
I attended the same congregation, Brooklyn Heights, and the Tuesday night book study at their Brooklyn home, a waterfront brownstone on Columbia Heights, just up the street from Bethel at 124/107 Columbia Heights. You rarely saw Abby's father around the JWs at all, and would not often see her older brother at meetings. But she and her younger brother were (are?) active JWs, as well as her mother. I found the mother to be a most interesting woman. She's an excellent conversationalist, well-read, with interests that went well beyond most JWs.
I don't know all the details of their history with JWs, but I assume that Susette Heath Black tried to make sure her son grew up as a JW, and marry a JW. But these were not your average JWs, of course. For example, I was shown where Einstien and other famous people had visited. I've stayed in a guesthouse nicer than houses I grew up in. The family actually had two houses in Southampton when I visited, and maybe one in Easthampton. This is among some of the nicest property on Long Island. (I believe I've also seen a picture of one of the Southampton places on the World Bank site some time ago.)
Some E.R.Black trivia below:
By the way, if any of you listen to the old recorded White House phone recordings of President L.B.Johnson as sometimes played on CSPAN, you may notice that Johnson discussed offering a White House appointment for Eugene R Black, Jr. Johnson discussed this with with Robert S McNamara, Sec of Defense. Curiously, McNamara himself went on to take over the presidency of the World Bank, 5 or 6 yers after Eugene Black. The world bank site comments on the difference between McNamara's "appointment" and the previous presidents of the bank:
All were impeccable establishment figures accepted on Wall Street and by the U. S. Treasury, which was very important to the Bank. The Bank's senior staff worried that Lyndon Johnson had dumped a political liability on them; McNamara was an architect of the Vietnam War, which was unpopular the world round; to boot he was rumored to have been fired. Another anxiety among the close-knit staff was that McNamara would descend on them with a phalanx of Whiz Kids and turn the place inside out, as he had the Pentagon." McNamara began at the Bank in April 1968, and served as President until June 1981.
A couple years ago, while bored at work, I did some research on the family. There were several places on the Internet where surprisingly bad assumptions had been made, sometimes confusing E.R.Black, Sr, with E.R.Black Jr.
The flack over E.R.Black Sr and the Federal Reserve didn't seem to be very significant in my view. A lot of people lost money in the stock market crash and looked for scapegoats. McFadden (once Chairman of the Banking and Currency Committee) was allowed a lot of leeway in the midst of the post-1929 "zeitgeist", and he gave several polemic speeches against the Fed Reserve and banking practices. Ironically, in a lot of ways the World Bank and the IMF began doing the very thing that he accused the the Federal Reserve of doing. World Bank Group Historical Chronology gives some evidence that Jr followed in the footsteps of Sr.
F.D.Roosevelt evidently broke his good friendship with E.R.Black, Sr, over Federal Reserve issues but not the same ones brought up in McFadden's accusation. I think on most Fed points, Black and Roosevelt would have agreed even more than Jefferson and Hamilton did in their version of the same discussions, a century or so earlier.
Roosevelt's supposed capitulation to stop backing US currency with gold made him a treasonous dictactor to McFadden, an accusation that stands in The Congressional Record. His complaints were not acted upon. Supposedly, McFadden subsequently suffered a couple attempts on his life, both in Washington D.C. There was an attempted assassination by shooting and an attempted poisoning at a banquet where a physician friend pumped his stomach in time. At any rate, he died 10/3/1936 after a flu-/-heart attack. I don't think we can pin that one on Rutherford. (If only he had asked to be dressed in toga, as C.T.Russell did on Halloween, 1916, then we'd have a little more to go on... ;o)