Posts by Gamaliel

117

Letter from a friend in Iraq

by Yerusalyim in

ok, i won't give his name, but he is a major with an engineer unit in iraq.

here's what he has to say on iraq, i've highlighted a few interesting points.

it has been a while since i have written to my friends about what's really going on here in iraq.

As I said parenthetically in my first post in this thread, this smacks of an email hoax. When I was Webmaster for all the Web sites in the (international) corporation I work for, one of my tasks was to try to suppress the number of hoax emails that would get distributed and relayed. It actually becomes pretty easy to pick them out after a few examples. Propaganda email hoaxes like this one are very popular and often escape detection for quite a while because people who believe in the contents are often tempted to "make it their own," sometimes even personalizing them with a few extra details. You are hardly the first person to engage in this deception, I've seen many examples from my own co-workers who felt the need to make something more believable because it was important to them. (Same thing happens with examples of emails about so-called proofs of Bush's stupidity which are often just minor updates to old epistles about Quayle's stupidity.)

Either you or the "friend" who sent it to you has made a "Major" blunder in assessing its source or in an attempt at personalizing it. I'd merely drop the subject before you get any deeper into it. This will not likely be the only forum on which this exact scenario plays out.

Gamaliel

8

Branch letters in the older KMs

by dmouse in

jw
friends

i was browsing some older kms on the latest wt cd and noticed that each month there used to be a branch letter included.

this appeared to be a friendly, informal letter advising brothers of what was happening that month - all the interesting news from bethel etc.. then, seemingly without any warning, the bethel letters disappeared from the kms in december 1978. i wonder why?.

the letters seemed a very warm way for the brothers in bethel to communicate with the brothers 'out there' , it made them seem much more human and loving.

Gamaliel

Maybe they were cancelled due to sloppy writing like the following:

In all, 128 brothers attended, and 107 wives accompanied them

Makes it seem like Bethel didn't care whose wife belonged to whom.

Seriously, this was a pretty interesting experience at Bethel.

the Governing Body obtained much valuable information from them, such as on the spiritual condition and needs of the brothers in their lands and comments about assemblies, meetings, field service, and so forth.

That quote doesn't reveal just how much trouble is buried in those final words "and so forth." Many of the Branch Overseers came in with questions like: "How do we explain to new ones why we are still expected to bribe government officials here in Mexico? or "How do we explain that the 144,000 is not a great crowd; many people here in Malawi believe 144 is a big crowd, and have never even seen a crowd bigger than 1,440?" Or "We had trouble translating the expression: 'young elder.'" Or, "We were supposed to change from 'Kingdom Ministry' to 'Kingdom Service', but in our country the expressions' meanings were as different as "The King's Officers" and "The King's Slaves" and the King himself didn't like it!" etc. etc. etc.

Gamaliel

38

Questions about Jehovah's Witnesses that I need answers to

by the real truth in

i'm not trying to offend anyone by asking questions, but i really want answers to my questions from jehovah's witnesses.

ok, i've been having a problem with john 1:1. how many gods are there?

the most famous distortion in the nwt is john 1:1. the nwt inserts the word "a" in front of the second god in this verse.

Gamaliel

I don't know any Trinitarians at all who think that there are three Gods in one God. I do know a lot of Trinitarians who believe that there are three Persons who make up the one God.
But then, it's much easier to debunk a doctrine if you first distort what it teaches, isn't it?

That would be me. As much as I've read those words in Trinitarian literature, I have to admit they don't quite sink in like they have with you. I'm probably guilty of distorting the Trinity doctrine if it really teaches that the three Persons make up one God, but that each person is only a personality of God. I always got the impression that true believers in the Trinity actually do teach exactly that (3 Persons = 1 God, not 3 Gods = 1 God) but that this formula is more of a "posture," used only in the circumstance created when the required language becomes too obviously polytheistic. At all other times, when no one is questioning the doctrine, Jesus = fully God, the Father = fully God, and Holy Spirit = fully God. In fact, just as in NT practice, the Father becomes the primary person equated with God, which puts Trinitarians at even less variance with the unspoken beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.

If the Father is fully God and Jesus is fully God, and they are both true, then we have two true Gods. If the Father is God and the Word is God then we have two Gods. If the Son/Messiah is Mighty God and the Father is Almighty God then we have two Gods.

If three persons are fully King, even if they meet and work together, see each other, represent each other and are sent by/from each other, we still have three Kings.

Rom 15:6: so that...you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 8:6: yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Eph 4:6 4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Thess 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

I know this subject gets beaten to death, but it's my first time discussing it. I should let you know that I do believe that the Gospel of John teaches exactly what you say (2 Persons = 1 God) and until just a few minutes ago, I used to think that John taught it very subtly so that it would sink in rather than offend the sensibilities of fellow Jewish/Christian monotheists. but I now believe that, although the language was necessarily careful, it is a lot more precise than I used to think. I have just reread a lot of John after your post above and I realize that John seems even more clearly in line with the definition you gave. It was JW baggage I've carried for 20 years that kept me from seeing it as simply as you put it.

Yet, although I could accept that John promoted that doctrine or definition consistently, I see nearly the opposite belief expressed consistently in nearly all (about 100) other "proof texts" with maybe 4 exceptions. Problem is, even those exceptions are ambiguous to me. If the Trinity was a necessary and "true" doctrine in the first century, it seems that John is the only writer who gets it (or, for whom the Spirit has revealed all things).

Gamaliel

67

Ran into two JW's in service today, I was on !!!, it was classic !!!

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

well, for some reason i was up extra early today, understand i am night person and usually sleep to 11 or so today i was up at 9 and decided to take the dogs out before it got to hot outside.

i hadn't been gone 3 minutes and as i came out of my street onto another i bumped into 2 jw's (females) getting out of their suv.

they asked do you have a couple of minutes.

Gamaliel

I like these threads. The story was like a fantasy that many of us here wish had happened to them and for a magical moment they are able to live that fantasy vicariously because of a short, well-written description of what happened. Now amac (primarily) points out that those of us who are reveling in the fantasy should re-think:

I'm sorry, but your comments were downright rude and this thread is pitiful. Not only is it a crime to be a JW but also to drive a Cadillac Escalade!?!?! ..[edited].. Being misled and ignorant is different than lying intentionally. Nice way to insult someone though..[edited]..I can't believe you people have so much bitterness that you would rejoice over the insults thrown at someone that you were no doubt very much like not too long ago. How HYPOCRITICAL!

Well, "the unexamined life/belief is not worth living/believing," and amac's opinion seems to have moved a lot of people to start examining, if only to defend themselves. I'm not just playing on the middle ground here, although I believe that both detractors and protractors have made good, valid points. Personally, I revel in the diversity of styles. I love the fact that amac spoke up, too. (Not always easy when one senses a crowd.) I also loved the story because it reflects a style that I rarely use myself, and I'm sometimes jealous. I don't think it's wrong,as amac has expressed, but I agree that in most circumstances, you can get a lot further with love, empathy, sympathy and sensitivity.

Gamaliel

2

Jaracz Denounces Traditional Latino Celebrations!

by czarofmischief in

racist comments revive religion.

ted jaracz, head of the organization formerly known as jehovah's witnesses, today launched a verbal assault on latino communities in the los angeles area.

his comments incensed local and national civil rights leaders, while at the same time provided a focus for a religion that some say has lost its way.. referring to the traditional habit among certain latin american communities of firing their guns into the air during celebrations, jaracz denounced this as "an obvious attempt to bring down the kingdom of god.".

Gamaliel

Excellent!!!

30

Is our History a Lie....

by searchfothetruth in

" who controls the past, controls the future.

who controls the present, controls the past.".

george orwell, 1984.

Gamaliel

I've skimmed a couple of these new books. They seem to be the latest selling spin on the discoveries of historians, sociologists, anthropoligists, etc over the last 100 years or more. Joseph Campbell did a good job with this subject in "The Hero With A Thousand Faces." It showed similarities among the sacrificed hero religions in most every culture. If one picks and chooses which facts to believe he could find many of the features of Christianity in a combination of these other heroes, cults and religions. There seem to be several exaggerations to make the specific case above. But in general, the points seem quite valid.

Gamaliel

117

Letter from a friend in Iraq

by Yerusalyim in

ok, i won't give his name, but he is a major with an engineer unit in iraq.

here's what he has to say on iraq, i've highlighted a few interesting points.

it has been a while since i have written to my friends about what's really going on here in iraq.

Gamaliel

Yeru,

Thanks for providing that. Its meaning will, of course, generally be interpreted according to our own pre-dispositions about the war and our knowledge about political "spin." Still it's meaningful to hear from another angle. Even if it's 99% based on the military spin that many have come to expect, it is still another source that might contain some useful coloring based on the personal experiences of your friend. For example, I see that your friend has some hesitation about how the war meshes with Christianity. ("There is no Christian way to say they must be eliminated...") Also, I see that he is ready to accept the probability that no WMD will be found. ("so drop the WMD argument as the reason we came here") ("if we don't [find them], SO WHAT?") Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if some are found, however. Also, I see, in the making, another potential reason/defense for continuing the US/Coalition occupation. ("The more they shoot at us, the longer we will stay.")

Anyone with any knowledge of spin and propaganda, however, can recognize the style of mixing some numbers (eg, 3200 MW and 132 KV[?!] lines, that ostensibly have a high degree of accuracy with other numbers already admitted to be hyperbole (like 0 and 90%). This is typical of spin propaganda (and hoax emails, for that matter). They are usually meant to lead to beleivability of otherwise impossible statements like: "But, ANY damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities, refineries, pipelines, was ALL caused either by the Iraqi Army in its death throws or the Iraqi civilians looting the places." The words ANY and ALL are the equivalent of explicit 0% and 100% figures, which the military has already admitted to be absolutely false. They have no choice but to admit this, because we've already seen live footage which would make us laugh at such a claim (at least for a few more weeks when most of us will have forgotten about the live footage).

The claim I would be most suspicious of in the entire letter is this one: and WE, the US ARMY, at least 4th ID, are insuring it [oil/gas/LPG] is being distributed FAIRLY to ALL Iraqi's. ... ALL LPG goes to the Iraqi people EVERYWHERE.

It is so full of the implicit 0% and 100% claims, yet it is patently false. Your friend himself must know this because he implies he is close enough to that situation to know a lot about it. This should have been censored because it effectively sullies the more believable propaganda in the rest of the letter. He pushed the envelope of credibility too far, and piled it a bit too high on the proverbial "camel's back".

Letters like this, are always valuable for what gets through the censors. (A major is quite capable of self-censorship, based on his own beliefs, career preservation, his personal support for self and country, etc.) Belief systems often blind people to contradictions that are not obvious to the official spinners and censors, and therefore all sources of potential information become very valuable for their methods, for their arguments, for what they do and don't say, for what is "between the lines", etc. It's a subtle business, and won't make any difference to those of us who think there are basically only two sides to the war, but it will be meaningful for those who are still seeking truth about this war.

Keep anything like this coming. I find it very valuable and meaningful.

Gamaliel

12

Is a Library Card 'The Hire of a Harlot'?

by metatron in

it appears from private conversations ,as published on this board, that getting access to un libraries actually was a motivation.

for the watchtower leadership to sign on as official supporters of the un.

if we adopt the language the society has used in regard to other religions ( "babylon the great") - as well as the blunt prophecies.

Gamaliel

Good thread, the first one I saw/read when I just got back from vacation a few minutes ago.

It reminds me of one of the best scenes in "A Man For All Seasons" in which Sir Thomas More chastises Richard Rich, who has decided to perjure himself against More for his own political gain (in this case for a vacant post in Wales). Thomas More says something like, It profits a man nothing to give his soul for the world. But for Wales?"

With the JWs it seems so similar: "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very soul? But for a LIBRARY CARD?!?!?!?"

Gamaliel

264

Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros in

jw
friends

i just heard that the norwegian watchtower apologist, rolf furuli, who esteems himself a biblical scholar of semetic languages, has completed the first of two volumes he plans to publish on the societys chronology, assyrian, babylonian, egyptian and persian chronology compared with the chronology of the bible.. title of this first volume is: persian chronology and the length of the babylonian exile of the jews.. i hear that although carl olof jonsson is not mentioned by name, or reference made to his book "gentile times reconsidered," it is nevertheless apparent that these volumes are an attempt to refute jonssons excellent study which has exposed the watchtowers 1914 date as total folly.. .

the book can be ordered now from furulis new personal website:.

http://folk.uio.no/rolffu/.

Gamaliel

Scholar,

This thread has gotten so long that I thought I had perhaps missed your response, and perhaps you had missed my questions. Also, I'm going to be on vacation for a week and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, in case I don't have Internet access for a while.

So far, here are your responses to my 5 questions:

#1. No response yet from scholar.
#2. No response yet from scholar.
#3. No response yet from scholar.
#4. No response yet from scholar.
#5. No response yet from scholar.

Thanks,
Gamaliel

38

Questions about Jehovah's Witnesses that I need answers to

by the real truth in

i'm not trying to offend anyone by asking questions, but i really want answers to my questions from jehovah's witnesses.

ok, i've been having a problem with john 1:1. how many gods are there?

the most famous distortion in the nwt is john 1:1. the nwt inserts the word "a" in front of the second god in this verse.

Gamaliel

the real truth,

I can't tell if you figured out yet that there are very few JWs on this board. I am not one, although I was for half my life. The JW religion manages to control one's life in such a way that the even the experience of getting free is something we'd like to talk about for the rest of our lives. In most cases the religion still manages to control our friends so that they believe they have become our enemies when we leave. In many cases it still controls our relatives, even our mothers and fathers, in some cases so that they shun their own children.

It is due to such issues that this board for discussing JW issues exists. True, current JWs rarely open their beliefs to the scrutiny of those who have seen through them. It's a survival response to hate the exposure, because deep down, they know that their beliefs are not rational. A few haven't figured that out yet, but most any JW who truly looks into his or her own beliefs will see them to be irrational, but will usually stop short of thinking or researching their own religion because they fear their own doubts. Doubting means spiritual death, and spiritual death means eternal physical death at God's tiem of judgment. You can't really blame them for not thinking about contradictions in their own religion. What you can blame them for is the fact that they spend so much time criticizing other religions and congratulating themselves continually on having the best and only true one.

By the way, many Christians also contradict themselves on the multiple Gods issue. They say they only believe in One True God, but many of them also believe in Three True Gods. In some ways the JW belief is just as rational. They do believe in multiple true gods, just as Trinitarian Christians do. They even apply the scripture in Isaiah to Jesus, that says Jesus (prophetically) will be called Mighty God, and the capital G doesn't bother them. (Calling him Almighty God, would bother them.)

Understand, too, that lots of us will get annoyed at pretentious screen names like "Gamaliel" "Jesus Christ" and "the real truth".

Enjoy,

Gamaliel