Posts by Halcon

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

Aqwsed, I truly do appreciate your responses as they shed a lot of light on the subject.

But the fact that we've arrived at the 'mystery' part of the conversation renders anyone's interpretation as good as the other. We can only try to wrap our minds around what we are able to grasp, and in the end we all can only say it is truly beyond human comprehension.

I do have a question. In heaven, that is to say in spirit, the Son stands next to the Father. This is not the Son in the flesh praying to the Father but rather two persons in spirit. Cannot the Son communicate in spirit with the Father here as he did from earth as a man? If yes, than what is the difference whether he spoke to the Father as a man or as spirit?

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB-The belief that Jesus and God are the same person with a different essence is called Modalism.

This is not what I wrote.

I wrote that God the Father is separate from God the Son.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

Catholic theology is precise: the distinctions between the persons of the Trinity lie not in their deity or in possession of divine attributes, but in their relations of origin—the Father is unbegotten, the Son is eternally begotten, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (and, in Western theology, from the Son). What the Father is, the Son is, save only the property of paternity; what the Son is, the Father is, save only filiation.

Therefore they are two separate persons.

The Church teaches, in line with the Fathers and Councils, that the divine persons are distinct but not separate; they are not three gods, nor three beings, but one God in three persons.

One title, God, shared by 3 persons.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB-To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” What is it about Jesus being God that bothered so many people then as it does now?

It's possible that the word 'God' conveys someone that is ultimate and above all else. For that title to belong to three separate persons seems to change the meaning of the word God at first.

The Bible clearly describes the Father (God the Father) as having attributes that God the Son doesn't have, because they are two separate beings although both retaining the title of God.

While Thomas acknowledged Jesus as being God, he didn't imply that the Son was the same person as the Father. I believe that it is saying the Son is the same person as the Father that may 'upset' people today.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

I believe it's revelatory that the criminal at Jesus' side was deemed worthy of salvation (heaven) by Jesus at the crucifixion.

Here is a criminal deserving of his execution by his own admission, where scriptures give no indication that he had obtained any knowledge of Christ or his relation to the Father. Or if he had, it wasn't enough to compel him to change his ways and avoid being sentenced.

Yet he was saved (by his expression of humility on the cross and whatever else Christ saw in his heart). It's difficult to argue that he would be the one lone exception and everyone else must have an absolute understanding of the essence of God to be saved. If it is truly the case that God "desires that all should be saved" then he won't hold our lack of comprehension against us.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

BoogerMan -According to several Scriptures, Jesus has a God. How can God have a God?

If you equate God with only the Father than it presents a logical problem. But if both the Father and the Son share the title of God (as in the Trinity) then yes, the Father is both Father and God to God the Son.

It only makes sense if you remember they are two separate persons sharing the same title.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

a) Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying the Father & the Son are now 2 separate individuals?

Not just now. The Trinity doctrine always held that the Father and the Son are two separate persons.

Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying that Jesus is not all-knowing?

Clearly, according to the scripture. But even without having all knowledge and being in subjection to the Father, Jesus retains the title of God.

This has always been the Trinity doctrine.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

If you are saying that both Jesus and God can be called “God”, but that God is superior to Jesus in knowledge (and power and eternity) then that’s actually what JWs believe, not Trinitarians.

Jesus and the Father both (tho separate beings) are called God by the Trinitarians. "God" is a title. The Father is clearly superior in knowledge and the head of the Son, Jesus per the scriptures (Catholic and protestant). Yet the Son retains the title of God.

As I said somewhere in another thread, the teachings of JW and Trinitarians are not as different as they may first appear to be.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

Nobody can know more than God. If there is somebody who knows something Jesus doesn’t know, that means Jesus can’t be God.

Nobody knows more than the Father, to be more precise (according to theTrinity doctrine).

The title of God however is held also by the Son. Which is to say that God the Son is not all-knowing, per the scriptures we've referenced in this thread.

66

Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan in

(matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

(jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

(acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

Halcon

Boogerman- Matthew 24:36) “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

Because the Trinity doctrine still has the Father and the Son as being two separate beings (sharing the same title of God). It follows that one could know something that the other may not, because they are two separate beings.