Halcon

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Posts by Halcon

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  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

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• 

  Halcon

  aqwsed-The term “mystery” does not imply that all interpretations are equally valid or that our efforts to understand are in vain. Rather, it means that the reality being described—the inner life of the triune God—is ultimately above the full grasp of finite human reason, though not contrary to reason.

  I completely agree. And they are most certainly not in vain when a sincere heart is searching for a clearer understanding. This is why it isn't damnation for the soul that accepts the Father and the Son as beings not of the Trinity doctrine. Although it may be central to theology, the doctrine is clearly not central to salvation.

  I do believe that the doctrine in some ways does enhance our awe, respect and even love for our God. In addition to that it is a fascinating study into this mystery.

  But it was God after all that used the very simple terms (knowing how human beings would relate to those terms) of father and son to help us understand him better.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  That is the biblical definition of "death" - when your soul, body and spirit become separated - usually when the body expires.

  Correct, the human body disintegrates into nothing.

  This is how God shed his blood and died. This is also how Jesus raised himself from the dead, while he was dead as he predicted he would.

  This is where we differ in explanation (I believe). You state God raised himself by means of the Father having the same title as the Son.

  I say, to be more precise, God the Father raised God the Son (a separate person).

  For the sake of conversation, who would be right?
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Just as your spirit (and soul) is certainly not the same person as your flesh, but together they make one being called human or "Man".

  I agree, man is flesh and spirit. But when it comes to man, spirit is greater than flesh.(A physical body without mind and heart is what? Nothing.)

  The Son, flesh, however retains his full significance as God.

  So I don't think it is an adequate comparison, altho it does underline the difference between Son and Father.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  SB-Jesus is still human, and He has a human body in heaven right now. His body is different, however; earthly human flesh is perishable, but heavenly bodies are imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus has a physical body, with a difference. His resurrected body is designed with eternity in view.

  Very interesting. And it further confirms that the Son is certainly not the same person as the Father.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  SB-In other words, the Gods are one God.

  To be more precise, the Son and the Father both share the same title of God.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Aqwsed, I truly do appreciate your responses as they shed a lot of light on the subject.

  But the fact that we've arrived at the 'mystery' part of the conversation renders anyone's interpretation as good as the other. We can only try to wrap our minds around what we are able to grasp, and in the end we all can only say it is truly beyond human comprehension.

  I do have a question. In heaven, that is to say in spirit, the Son stands next to the Father. This is not the Son in the flesh praying to the Father but rather two persons in spirit. Cannot the Son communicate in spirit with the Father here as he did from earth as a man? If yes, than what is the difference whether he spoke to the Father as a man or as spirit?
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  SB-The belief that Jesus and God are the same person with a different essence is called Modalism.

  This is not what I wrote.

  I wrote that God the Father is separate from God the Son.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Catholic theology is precise: the distinctions between the persons of the Trinity lie not in their deity or in possession of divine attributes, but in their relations of origin—the Father is unbegotten, the Son is eternally begotten, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (and, in Western theology, from the Son). What the Father is, the Son is, save only the property of paternity; what the Son is, the Father is, save only filiation.

  Therefore they are two separate persons.

  The Church teaches, in line with the Fathers and Councils, that the divine persons are distinct but not separate; they are not three gods, nor three beings, but one God in three persons.

  One title, God, shared by 3 persons.
• 
  41

  John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

  - john 20: 28 nwt.

  why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  SB-To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.” What is it about Jesus being God that bothered so many people then as it does now?

  It's possible that the word 'God' conveys someone that is ultimate and above all else. For that title to belong to three separate persons seems to change the meaning of the word God at first.

  The Bible clearly describes the Father (God the Father) as having attributes that God the Son doesn't have, because they are two separate beings although both retaining the title of God.

  While Thomas acknowledged Jesus as being God, he didn't imply that the Son was the same person as the Father. I believe that it is saying the Son is the same person as the Father that may 'upset' people today.
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  66

  Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  (matthew 24:36) “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.".

  (jesus seems to have forgotten to include the holy spirit not knowing either).

  (acts 1:7) "he said to them: “it does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the father has placed in his own jurisdiction.".

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  Halcon

  I believe it's revelatory that the criminal at Jesus' side was deemed worthy of salvation (heaven) by Jesus at the crucifixion.

  Here is a criminal deserving of his execution by his own admission, where scriptures give no indication that he had obtained any knowledge of Christ or his relation to the Father. Or if he had, it wasn't enough to compel him to change his ways and avoid being sentenced.

  Yet he was saved (by his expression of humility on the cross and whatever else Christ saw in his heart). It's difficult to argue that he would be the one lone exception and everyone else must have an absolute understanding of the essence of God to be saved. If it is truly the case that God "desires that all should be saved" then he won't hold our lack of comprehension against us.