TD

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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  TD

  Dunsscot,

  Re: #1& #2 I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. Your response to #2 however seems to border on the contradictory. You seem on one hand, to recognize the seriousness of enforcing a false teaching in God’s name while at the same time dismissing it as the natural, inevitable and small consequence of teachings formed through affirmation, negation, and then by negating the negation. The most natural solution would simply be not to enforce some of the more obviously unresolved teachings, a proposition you almost seem to agree with. As a result, I am not sure of whether you do or do not believe that enforcement of doctrinal conformity on a teaching in the processof being resolved dialectically can be rationalized as conscionable.

  Re: #3 I have a lot of problems with this paragraph. The idea that Witnesses perform anything resembling risk/benefit analysis when it comes to transfusion medicine is laughable, as the WTB&TS has, in ways that would be criminal for a secular publisher, seen to it that JW’s are thoroughly misinformed on this topic. I can elaborate if you want, but the idea that viable alternative treatments to “blood” can be presupposed to exist is a fairly good example of this in and of itself.

  I asked you in another thread to align, if you can, the respective situations of Abraham and JW’s. You have, without responding to that request, not only reasserted that comparison, you have done so to the exact same person that found it lacking, no less. Abraham acted in obedience to a clearly enunciated, direct command from God himself. JW’s, in the absence of anything resembling a demonstration of either physical or moral equivalency apply to a medical situation, a scripture written to resolve a dispute over the necessity of circumcision and adherence to other aspects of Old Testament Law. As if this was not questionable enough, they typically do this by invoking as a stand-alone construction a phrase with an incomplete predicate apart from the biblical context that completes it. They thus set a standard of adherence that is simply assumed and cannot be shown to have originated with God. How does this compare with the example of Abraham?

  Lastly, I felt that I did juxtapose the JW blood doctrine alongside the greater framework of JW teaching. It should be obvious that JW’s have on one side of the scales, some very clear scriptural injunctions concerning the sanctity of the gift of life and the severe penalty associated with unjustly depriving a fellow human of this gift. Consequently, when it comes to a minor child or some other dependent for whom one is responsible for, JW’s need something of sufficient “weight” to balance those scales and justify withholding a blood-based therapy when death is a likely result of such a course. The observations of your professor are interesting, but the question of whether adult Jehovah’s Witnesses have the right to refuse blood, is irrelevant to that issue.

  Tom
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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  TD

  Dunsscot,

  Your approach is interesting, but strikes me as deficient on several counts.

  First, the observation that biblical Christianity cannot be an entirely "open" system is fair enough, but does little to justify the essentially “closed” system of the JW’s where however respectful, however qualified, the exchange of logical arguments is actively discouraged.

  Second, since you have stated that you are a JW in good standing then I hardly need to remind you that JW’s believe that life belongs to Jehovah, (Ezekiel 18:4) that when life is lost by design, by accident or by negligence, those responsible are accountable with their lives (Genesis 9:5,6; Ezekiel 3:18,20; 33:6,8) and that causing the death of someone completely innocent has been one of the most detestable things to Jehovah since the time of Abel. (Proverbs 6:16,17; Genesis 4:10; Psalm 5:6; Psalm 55:23 Jeremiah 7:30,31) There seems to be no accounting in your explanation for the fact that the JW system forces Christians at times to choose between obedience to partially formed ideas and obedience to the Divine law itself. For example, if you are at all familiar with the JW blood doctrine then you are aware of at least some of the significant reversals that have occurred after nonconformity with the doctrine became a offense enforced through judicial inquiry and sanctions. (e.g. Use of serums, clotting factors, isovolemic hemodilution, cell salvage equipment.)

  Third, your use of the phrase “we must not be hindered by such small details” strikes me as a flat denial of the gravity of these situations. If, for example you were the Witness parent of a child stricken with neonatal immunological deficiency syndrome during the period in the early 60’s when the Society decided that you could not be considered a Christian and allow the administration of IVIG to your child, you would have had a serious problem. Such a child can often have a sniffle in the morning, a raging fever by noon, be hospitalized with double pneumonia by evening and not survive the night without this preparation. Looking back, nearly forty years later when no one thinks twice about serum preparations and albumin can be found either as an excipient or adjuvant solution in the battery of immunizations that most children must have to attend public school, this hardly seems to be a small detail. Enforced “conformity to certain ideas that are not in fact fully formed” induced JW’s to erroneously set aside the plain and simple, crystal clear, black and white statements within the captioned scriptures and children came to harm as a result.

  Tom
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  137

  Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  does freedom of thought really obtain in this forum?

  are those who have left god's organization and jehovah god himself actually now more open-minded and unbiased?

  if those who espouse atheistic thoughts or those who believe every vile utterance spoken against jehovah's people think they are now speaking from some olympian perspective, i beg to differ.

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  TD

  But what trick of the imagination (assuming that you are a loyal JW in good standing) do you rationalize as conscionable the enforcement of doctrinal conformity on a teaching in the process of being resolved dialectically?
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  41

  Kierkegaard on Abraham and Isaac: Blood

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  to whom it may concern,.

  the witnesses are often condemned for refusing blood transfusions and "permitting" their children to die.

  such a religious position is untenable, opponents of jws will argue.

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  TD

  Dunsscot,

  In a case like that of Abraham there is a fine line between obedience to the Divine will and attempted murder.

  In the absence of a direct command from God - in other words if Abraham made his decision based upon what he had surmised or speculated that Jehovah might want, but didn't specifically state, he would have crossed that line. Instead of going down in history as an outstanding example of faith, he would have been remembered as a lunatic and murderer.

  In regard to the blood issue, if a child of yours died as a direct result of your actions and Jehovah at some future date were to ask you, "Why have you down this thing?" how would you answer? Could you truthfully and unflinchingly say, "Because You have commanded it?"

  Can you produce such a Divine command for my benefit? I would be most interested in your reply.

  Tom
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  4

  How Does Protein Get Made?

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  not being a science guy (my "higher education" came from being a pioneer and reading countless piles of awake!

  shit) i have a question for you bio-chemists out there:.

  i recently heard this syllogism:.

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  TD

  Farkel,

  Briefly, the digestive system breaks the food you eat down into soluable materials that can pass through the cell membrane – simple sugars, fatty acids, amino acids, trace elements and water.

  Proteins are essentially long chains of amino acids assembled within the cell in various combinations. Insulin for example is formed from 16 different amino acids. Some proteins are long, thin fibers, such as those of hair or silk while others are “folded” into three-dimensional shapes like hemoglobin and other blood proteins.

  The source of the protein consumed is not particularly relevant as it all gets broken down into its constituent amino acids anyway. Problems arise when one is restricted to a diet deficient in one or more essentialamino acids.

  Strict vegens need to give special attention to their diet for the simple reason that plant tissue generally contains much less protein than does animal tissue. A pound of hamburger contains 107 grams of protein whereas a pound of potatoes contains only 10. With the proper diet, vegetarianism can be a perfectly healthy lifestyle though.
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  68

  WTS lied about Joseph Priestley and Blood

  by hawkaw in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some of you may have already made a post about this but i have decided to post the following anyway.. the booklet - how can blood save your life?

  (copyright 2000).

  part 2 - bloodvital for life.

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  TD

  Hawk,

  "Study 31" was a chapter in the Theocratic Ministry School Guidbook published in 1971. Although this book is slated to be replaced early next year, the information Nic quoted (From studies 21 & 31) is still considered to be "current" (....an interesting JWism in and of itself)

  Tom
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  7

  Assembly Musings

  by TD in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  during the sunday morning discourse, "jehovah hates the course of treachery" the following statement was made at the 2001 teacher's of god's word district convention of jehovah's witnesses: .

  "are we personally alert that no unrighteousness be found on our lips?

  for example, can our family members, including our mate really trust what we say?

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  TD

  I appreciate everyone's comments. Accompanying a JW spouse to all three *!!*#% days of a convention is only slightly less enjoyable than chewing your own arm off.

  Teejay,

  What point were they trying to get across, even if it WAS along the lines of "do as I say not as I do"?

  From the title, I had gotten the mistaken impression that this was going to be a tirade against “closet apostates” within the congregation. As it turned out, it would have taken a lot of imagination (more than I have) to construe the presentation as such.

  Briefly, the discourse was developed around Malachi chapter 2, a condemnatory message ostensibly delivered to the postexilic priesthood. The quote I gave above was the pivotal statement bridging the gap between the respective audiences of bible writer and JW speaker. This in my opinion was the point of the discourse. Although the writer or writers of the outline made no attempt to explain any of the various methods of crafting technically correct statements so as to give a false impression, the following examples were given of areas where such treachery could occur.

  1. (A very brief mention of) Honesty in business dealings
  2. Teaching anything save the “party line” in congregational assignments. (The only specific dealt with here was the presentation of “personal viewpoints.”)
  3. Marriage with “unbelievers” (Bit of a stretch that)
  4. “Unscriptural” divorce (Ditto)
  5. Chasing skin on the internet whilst the mate is not looking. (A major bugaboo at this convention)

  Tom
  (Hoping he has not made anyone gag)
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  7

  We had Bethelite visitors last night

  by ozziepost in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we had a lovely meal and conversation, but then the conversation turned to rome, which is a city all of us had visited not too long ago.. we spoke about the sights as you normally do, the vatican, st peters bassilica, the sistene chapel, and so on.

  but then i mentioned the catacombs.

  i am impressed by the sheer size of the catacombs.

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  TD

  Hello Ozzie,

  Interesting information about the catacombs. Thanks for sharing

  Speaking of your Bethelite visitors, you said

  No matter that Witnesses believe that the heavenly hope was held out till 1935. No, that didn't seem to faze them.

  The Society's stance doesn't allow for this type of squirming.

  Here is one among several examples that could be cited:

  "Their being called to heavenly life was not because they were somehow better than all the servants of God who had died before Pentecost of 33 C.E. (Matt. 11:11) Rather, Jehovah now had begun to select those who would be associate rulers with Jesus Christ. For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purposes.—Eph. 2:8-10."
  (United In Worship of the Only True God, 1983, p. 111, emphasis mine)

  There is a practical reason for this stance, which hasn't received a lot of attention lately:

  “Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves..….God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.”"
  (Survival Into a New Earth, 1984, p. 185)

  Incredible how ignorant Witnesses are of their own teachings.

  Tom
• 
  7

  Assembly Musings

  by TD in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  during the sunday morning discourse, "jehovah hates the course of treachery" the following statement was made at the 2001 teacher's of god's word district convention of jehovah's witnesses: .

  "are we personally alert that no unrighteousness be found on our lips?

  for example, can our family members, including our mate really trust what we say?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  During the Sunday morning discourse, "Jehovah Hates the Course of Treachery" the following statement was made at the 2001 Teacher's of God's Word District Convention of Jehovah's Witnesses:

  "Are we personally alert that no unrighteousness be found on our lips? For example, can our family members, including our mate really trust what we say? Can our brothers and sisters in the congregation? It would be so easy to develop the habit of couching one's words so that they are technically accurate, yet deliberately misleading to others."

  I'm curious - would "couching one's words so that they are technically accurate, yet deliberately misleading to others" include statements like the following?

  "By 1879 they had become sure that Christ’s second coming would begin his invisible presence; that a hard time of world distress was ahead; that thereafter would follow a millennium—the thousand-year reign of Jehovah’s Christ, to bring about restoration (restitution) of paradise conditions on earth with everlasting life for men of good will from all nations; and that the glad tidings of such “restitution” blessings should be heralded the world over."
  (The Watchtower January 15, 1955 p. 45)

  How about this one?

  "In 1879, however, it became clear which “second coming” voice was being chosen by Jehovah to speak the pure language as his Witnesses. By then a small Bible-study group led by Charles Taze Russell was meeting in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. They had become certain that Jesus’ second coming would begin his invisible presence, that a time of world distress was ahead, and that this would be followed by the Thousand Year Reign of Christ that would restore Paradise on earth, with eternal life for obedient humans."
  (The Watchtower May 1, 1991 p. 17)

  Or this?

  "As for the time of Christ’s second presence, Daniel’s prophecy is again the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan. 4:16) It was figured out as pointing to A.D. 1914, and The Watchtower called notice to the significance of 1914 in the year 1879."
  (The Watchtower November 1, 1952 p. 658)

  Or this?

  "The Bible also provided chronological evidence that 1914 would mark the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom, to be followed by unprecedented world trouble. But was anyone living back then aware that 1914 would be such a turning point in history? Decades before that date, there was an organization of people who were making known the significance of 1914."
  (Life - How Did It Get Here? By Evolution Or By Creation? pp. 227 & 229)

  Or this?

  "Prior to that unforgettable year the anointed Christians proclaimed the good news of God’s kingdom that was coming. Since that year God has supplied the theme of a new song. For in 1914 the heavenly Father and Source of theocratic government brought that glorious kingdom to birth by enthroning and crowning the Seed of his woman, the Heir of the covenant that was made with David for the everlasting kingdom. That was something new indeed."
  (The Watchtower April 15, 1958 p. 238)

  Or this?

  "Russell and his associates also saw that Christ’s presence was to be invisible, in spirit. The Gentile Times, during which period God’s sovereignty was not being expressed through any government on the earth, were to end in 1914. Then God’s Kingdom would be established in heaven. These teachings are identified with Jehovah’s Witnesses today.
  Russell and his companions announced these truths far and wide by talks and printed page."
  (Jehovah's Witnesses Unitedly Doing God's Will Worldwide 1986 p. 8)

  Or this?

  "So Jehovah’s people of the 19th century correctly understood that the pa·rou·si'a of Christ would be an invisible one. They had also come to an understanding that the end of the Gentile Times would occur in the autumn of 1914."
  (The Watchtower May 1, 1993 p. 11)

  Or perhaps it is hopelessly idealistic and naive to expect WTB&TS writers to actually practice what they preach?

  Tom
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  8

  All Scripture Inspired book/1975

  by comment in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was just looking at this quote from another thread:.

  "of what significance is this today?

  it means that by the fall of 1963 mankind has dwelt upon this earth 5,988 years.

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  TD

  Comment,

  The SI book was used extensively prior to 1975. As a result of related comments being made at the time, the overall effect of the material you have quoted from page 286 was not as great as one might imagine. For example:

  *** w68 5/1 271 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time ***
  4 According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation. Then God brought the animals to man to name. Yet, of Adam, Genesis states these words of Jehovah: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself.” (Gen. 2:18) Adam would realize this lonely condition very quickly, perhaps in just a few days or a few weeks. He would realize he needed another earthling with whom he could communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor would his naming the animals take an unduly long time. The basic animal kinds could have been relatively quickly named, for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah’s day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but perhaps only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus, Adam’s naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart would have occupied only a brief time after his creation. Since it was also Jehovah’s purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, it is logical that he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E. After her creation, God’s rest day, the seventh period, immediately followed.

  *** w68 8/15 500 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
  33 This time between Adam’s creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time. The animals were in subjection to Adam; they were peaceful; they came under God’s leading; they were not needing to be chased down and caught. It took Noah only seven days to get the same kinds of animals, male and female, into the Ark. (Gen. 7:1-4) Eve’s creation was quickly accomplished, ‘while Adam was sleeping.’ (Gen. 2:21) So the lapse of time between Adam’s creation and the end of the sixth creative day, though unknown, was a comparatively short period of time. The pronouncement at the end of the sixth day, “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good,” proves that the beginning of the great seventh day of the creative week did not wait until after Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.

  The gap between Adam's creation and the end of the sixth day was not overlooked, it was simply minimized.

  Tom