TD

Joined

• started 129 topics
• posted 7,315 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by TD

• 
  290

  The Global Flood

  by coldfish in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

  my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

  he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Coldfish,

  An excellent write-up done by an ex-Witness that participates here from time to time can be found at this link:

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/flood01.htm
• 
  46

  i need some proof for evolution

  by crizlee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i told my parents i dont believe in god, i dont believe in all this mystical stuff it seems like magic to me.

  i like science better, i believe in the big bang, and evolution.

  my keeps asking for proof, he says he has the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Sasquatch,

  Again, I'm glad you've shared all this info. I'm curious did they manage to get a viable female and male Cama? Are they even more exceptional in that they are also fertile?

  I don't think they know yet. Right now, there are only 3 Camas in existence (2 males, 1 female) and I don't think the female is old enough to be bred. It's also doubtful whether the project will continue.

  What they were hoping to achieve was a creature with the soft fur and pleasant disposition of the Llama --only bigger. What they got instead was a creature with the coarse fur and mean dispostion of the camel --only smaller.
• 
  46

  i need some proof for evolution

  by crizlee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i told my parents i dont believe in god, i dont believe in all this mystical stuff it seems like magic to me.

  i like science better, i believe in the big bang, and evolution.

  my keeps asking for proof, he says he has the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Hi Leo,

  Maybe TD can clarify whether interbreeding is possible above the level of genus. Lions and tigers, for instance, belong to the same genus Panthera, but can they breed with other members of the same family but across different genuses, such as with domesticated cats (Felis) or cheetahs (Acinonyx)

  Interbreeding above the level of genus is generally considered impossible, but there are some documented exceptions. The Camel and Llama belong to different genera (Camelus & Llama) so the example of the Cama is an exception, as is the example of the sheep/goat cross that occured in Botswanna. Both the Llama (Llama glama) and the Alpaca (Llama pacos) have been successfully crossed with the Vicuna. (Vicugna vicugna)

  The African Elephants (Loxodanta africana (africana & cyclotis) and the Asian elephants (Elephas maximus (maximus, indicus & sumatranus) are different genera and not considered that closely related. In 1978, an Asian Elephant cow gave birth to a calf sired by an African elephant. The calf lived for 12 days.

  The domestic cat (Felis catus) can breed with a number of small wild cats. These include, the Black footed cat (Felis nigripes) Geoffroy's cat (Felis geoffroyii) the Bobcat (Felis rufus) and Tiger cat (Felis tigrina) but not with larger members of the Felidae family. The Cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus) is a divergent member of this family that has never been successfully cross-bred.
• 
  46

  i need some proof for evolution

  by crizlee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i told my parents i dont believe in god, i dont believe in all this mystical stuff it seems like magic to me.

  i like science better, i believe in the big bang, and evolution.

  my keeps asking for proof, he says he has the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Thank you!

  I actually got interested in this subject as an argument for creation and only realized after the fact that it doesn't really support it very well at all.

  Another way to look at the evidence is to examine what related species cannot reproduce together.

  The Bible introduces the concept of "Kinds" very much in the context of reproduction. Genesis 1:21-25 mentions kinds that were to be fruitful and multiply and Genesis 6:19-20 mentions kinds that ostensibly were to repopulate the Earth after the flood.

  This is all well and good when you're dealing with species that can reproduce. It's not hard for example, to imagine the domestic dog and his wild "cousins" as being members of the same Biblical "Kind." After all, they're all fertile together, so they can, in a sense reproduce "according to their kind"

  In addition to our beloved Canis familiaris, these would include:

  Canis aureus Golden jackal Old World (78 chromosomes)
  Canis adustus Side-striped jackal SubSahara Africa (78 chromosomes)
  Canis mesomelas Black-backed jackal SubSahara Africa (78 chromosomes)
  Canis simensis Simien jackal Ethiopia (78 chromosomes)
  Canis lupus Gray wolf Holarctic (78 chromosomes)
  Canis latrans Coyote North America (78 chromosomes)
  Canis rufus Red wolf Southern U.S. (78 chromosomes)
  Canis alpinus Dhole Asia (78 chromosomes)

  Problem is, there are a whole boat-load of divergent members of the Canidae family

  For example:

  This is the Raccoon Dog (Nycteruetes procyonoides -- 42 chromosomes) of Asia and although it is a true canid, it is only a distant relative of the domestic Dog.

  Many other examples exist:

  Speothos venaticus Bushdog Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
  Lycalopex vetulus Hoary fox Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
  Cerdocyon thous Crab-eating fox Ne S. America (74 chromosomes)
  Chrysocyon brachyurus Manes wolf Ne S. America (76 chromosomes)
  Vulpes velox Kit fox Western U.S. (50 chromosomes)
  Vulpes vulpes Red fox Old and New world (36 chromosomes)
  Alopex lagopus Arctic fox Holarctic (50 chromosomes)
  Fennecus zerda Fennec fox Sahara (64 chromosomes)
  Otocyon megalotis Bat-eared fox Subsaharan Africa (72 chromosomes)
  Uocyon cinereoargenteus Gray fox North America (66 chromosomes)

  These are all members of the family Canidae but most of them cannot reproduce with the first group above.

  As you can see from the names, science appropriately catagorizes them into generas other than canis. This recognizes both their kinship to the Wolf, Jackal, Coyote and domestic Dog and their differences, which to me, seems the most honest way to look at things.

  However strict creationists, must wrestle with the question of whether these are distinctly different "Kinds" or not. Again, neither a "Yes" or a "No" answer really seems to me to accurately describe the reality of the situation, because the truth lies between these two extremes.
• 
  14

  I donated blood today at a local blood drive and...

  by stichione in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  ...i feel great!

  i have been a jw almost all my life, and at a little over 40 years old, for the first time i donated half a litre of whole blood, and i am told it can be used to save 4 people!

  i can't tell you how terrified i was to be spotted by a jw, although they would also have had a hard time explaining their presence at the clinic.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Congratulations Stichione! You done good!

  I can't tell you how terrified I was to be spotted by a JW,

  The last time I donated, I went to a United Blood Services branch located in a little strip mall near my house. I was sitting there staring at the ceiling, squeezing that little grip thing they give you when I heard a man's voice up at the front desk saying something about, "Doing a public service."

  I looked over and there was male, 30-something JW. I recognized that glazed look even before I noticed that he was trying to leave the Watchtower and Awake! on the table in the waiting area.

  Apparently this gentleman was out doing "Business territory" (I think that's the correct term...) so running into a JW while donating is not entirely out of the realm of possiblity.

  When I was done, I went back into the waiting area, picked up the JW magazines and said to the lady, (She knows me) "This is the religion that teaches their members that transfusion medicine is a sin." I held the magazines over the trash can and said, "Do you mind?" "Not at all" she said.

  In they went.
• 
  46

  i need some proof for evolution

  by crizlee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i told my parents i dont believe in god, i dont believe in all this mystical stuff it seems like magic to me.

  i like science better, i believe in the big bang, and evolution.

  my keeps asking for proof, he says he has the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  In regard to the original question:

  As Mike has explained, you won't find proof in the true sense of the word; all you will find is evidence.

  One line of evidence that is compelling to me is the fact that virtually every species is surrounded by a spectrum of other species that are related to it in varying degrees.

  At the "near" end of the spectrum, you will find sub-species so closely related that minor changes in size, color, features and/or behavior are the only real differences between them. Examples would include the Asian and African Lion, and the Summatran and Bengal Tigers.

  As we start to move away from a given species' most closest kin, we find other, more distinct species that often can still actively interbreed and produce fertile offspring. (Sometimes even in the wild) Lions and Tigers, for example can be bred to produce "Ligers" or "Tygons." (Lion/Tiger and Tiger/Lion respectively) Other examples would include Leopard/Lion, Lynx/Bobcat, Puma/Leopard, Polar Bear/Brown Bear, Polar Bear/Kodiak Bear, Forest/Savannah African Elephants, Blue/Black Wildebeast, Eland/Kudu, Masai/Rothschild's Giraffe, Harp/Hooded Seal --the list goes on and on.

  Every one of these pairings represent two species whose ancestery crosses or actually merges at some point in the past. It is intuitively apparent then that new species do diverge from common stock. This in and of itself would not be compelling if there was a clear "line" of gametic isolation conforming to the notion of Genesis "kinds" If that existed, we could write this all off as simply variartion within a "Kind" (e.g. The Lion and Tiger are both members of the "Cat Family" and hence the same basic "Kind.")

  However this doesn't seem to be the case. Some species which don't appear that closely related actually are. Camels and Llamas both have 74 chromosomes. A Llama/Camel cross (By artificial insemination) produces the "Cama" --a creature with the short ears and long tail of the camel, no hump and the Llama's cloven hoves.

  Other species obviously are related, but not nearly as close as we might think. Donkeys have 62 chromosomes, but horses have 64. Crossing a Donkey stallion with a Horse mare will give you either a Mule or a Molly. Because of this mismatch in karyotype, Mules are always sterile and Mollies almost always are. Similarly, crossing a Horse Stallion with a Donkey mare will sometimes produce the smaller boned Hinny, but often, it produces nothing at all. Mules, Mollies and Hinnies have 63 chromosomes.

  Some species are even more distantly related. Sheep have 54 chromosomes and Goats have 60. Crosses between sheep and goats will develop to the point of birth, but they are usually stillborn, although there have been documented exceptions. The resultant creature, which has long, goat-like legs and a heavy sheep-like body has 57 chromosomes

  Although a cross between the Bison and Domestic Cattle will produce healthy, fertile offspring, crossing the Water Buffalo with Domestic Cattle will produce a living Zygote, (Which means the Sperm and Egg did manage to successfully combine) but the Zygote dies when it splits beyond eight cells.

  Are sheep, cattle and goats one kind or three kinds? To me, neither answer is really attractive from the standpoint of creationism. If the answer is "One kind", why do they each have distinctly different genetic karyotypes respectively? If the answer is "Three kinds", then why can some combinations still interbreed?

  This to me is strong evidence that the idea of "species purity" is a human invention. Nature defies these attempts to compartmentalize creatures into static species. Life is a constantly changing genetic continuum rather than a rigid set of self-contained "Kinds."
• 
  22

  Are blood fractions safer than primary blood components?

  by IT Support in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  i'm thinking through my new position on blood transfusions, and would appreciate your 'pearls of wisdom.

  i now feel that, while a blood transfusion is still dangerous, i would accept it as a last resort, if all else failed.

  i would not die, or allow any of my family to die, for want of a transfusion of plasma, platelets, or red or white cells.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  XQ is correct. With plasma proteins ("fractions"), pathogenic inactivation can be achieved in a number of ways that are impossible with cellular components (e.g. UV & Heat treatments, Nanofilitration, etc.) So as long as proper protocols are followed, they are safer.

  However all plasma proteins are pooled biological products and because of this, they inherently share all the same potential risks as whole blood when and if they are improperly handled. In fact, the worst disasters that have befallen this branch of medicine have all involved the so-called "fractions."

  To cite two examples; more instances of HIV have arisen from the administration of factor VIII concentrates than all other blood components combined. A terrible outbreak of hepatitis during WWII involving over 28,000 servicemen was traced to 9 lots of improperly stored yellow fever vaccine. Both of these involved the use of "fractions."

  Everything in medicine boils down to risk vs. benefit. You stand roughly a 1 in 30,000 chance of not waking up from the anasthesia, but does this trouble you if the alternative is a ruptured appendix and a slow, painful death?
• 
  35

  Do you and your significant other share religious beliefs?

  by MelbaToast in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  sometimes, i think my husband is much more church oriented than i am.

  i still get upset when i attend church, but lately he has been putting the push on me for us to go back to his church where he grew up in.

  he would like to start taking our daughter so she has a somewhat structured religious belief.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  My wife is a JW. Although there was a time when I was enamored with the JW's, my view has gradually evolved towards skepticism.

  We get along great by simply not discussing certain topics.
• 
  21

  Knock Knock ... Good Morning, I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses ......

  by groovycat. in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hehe, how i hated saturday morings!.

  hello all, i'm new to the forum!.

  first of all, i would like to apologise to anyone who had the misfortune of opening their door early on a saturday morning to me preaching the good news!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  Thanksgiving is an American holiday, a mix of myth and vague history that began in the 1890's. (The current date for the holiday has only been observed since 1939)

  In the Autumn of 1621, a gathering took place betwwen the Plymouth colonists and the Wampanoag, an Algonkian speaking branch of Native Americans. The modern celebration of Thanksgiving is (very) loosely based upon this community feast.
• 
  251

  Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

  by booker-t in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

  i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

  fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TD

  I think leo is sounding more like the WTBTS than she even realizes as are you

  A contextual analysis of the Bible in light contermporaneous literature is by its very nature, an exercise of inquiry rather than a rigid statement of fact. The Bible is rich in colloquialism, metaphor and other literary devices that cannot be fully appreciated any other way.

  That is absolute anathema to the JW's and kindred groups , who prefer to take the Bible as we know it today and treat it as a contiguous whole written primarily to and for them.