Posts by TheOldHippie

11

Differences between JW's in different countries?

by taoInitiate in

this is a quote by ozziepost in another thread:.

"a coupla years back the service department overseer at the bethel here complained to me that they couldn't get the australian elders to follow instructions, nor to do what they were told!".

i think it emphasises something that i've been wondering about.

TheOldHippie

Just what I've been trying to tell for such a long time, that the culture difference seems to be real big, and that there seems to be a kind of square-headed US behaviour which would only be met with "the shaking of heads" over here.
On the other hand, the hard-liners seem to be the winners at least in the short run, just because they ARE hard-liners, and the liberal ones do not want to keep on with the never-ending discussions on "correct behaviour" which the hard-liners carry out all the time.
That's why I resigned as an elder after 24 years, tired of the hard-liners' constant discussions, while failing to see the problems of the world .........

8

Figures for Df-ings, Da-ings, and WA's

by taoInitiate in

hi.

just wondering if anyone has current figures on the number of disfellowshipings, disassociations, and walk-aways that are occuring from jw's.

i've heard a lot of older figures, but i was wondering if there was a source for more recent data.. thanks for any help here.... taoinit

TheOldHippie

What poses problems for your calculations, Amazing, is the fact that we at times are talking about the "same people" entering and leaving; a person might be disfellowshipped, then reinstated, then desfelloeshipped again, or he becomes inactive, then is reactivated, then becomes inactive again etc. Added to that, it was some years ago stated that 25 % of the publishers then had not yet been baptized, and so perhaps a person with whom a Bible study was conducted, would be a publisher one month, then not, then again, then not etc. It is very difficult, I would dare to say close to impossible, to come up with more or less exact figures as to how many are leaving or have left.
On the other hand, I have also ended up with the 11-million figure which you too have come up with, so either the two of us are some really clever guys, or we are both on a too simplistic path ........

15

Should you be shunned? Not anymore!

by Beans in

new light right from the official web site of the jw`s.

http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm yes if you scroll down you will find this:.

do you shun former members?.

TheOldHippie

Gopher, you are not right. The point is, that if one's attitude is that of repenting, there will be no disfellowshipping. If the attitude is not one of repenting, there will be disfellowshipping. I am here not discussing disfellowshipping in general, what someone has or has not done somewhere etc., but stating what the person you quote was saying, and that what he said is in accordance with the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.

5

JW Dogma May Promote Murder/Suicides

by Nathan Natas in

in light of the recent murder/suicide involving the bryant family of mcminnville, oregon, and the murder (no suicide) by christian longo of his family in newport, oregon, i'm opening this thread in the hope of shedding some light on the way that jw dogma may encourage such behavior.. here is a link to an article in the oregonian discussing the bryant tragedy: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/10163697352835756.xml.

here's a small portion of the aricle:.

a man who feels hopeless and isolated, as robert bryant might have if family and church ties were severed, is at risk for suicide, said dr. james hancey, an assistant professor of psychiatry at oregon health and science university.

TheOldHippie

Linking this to religion is way too simple; I won't argue that twisted minds might get some excuse or "reason" for their actions from how they have misunderstood their religion, but you need to separate between how that one person understands his religion and what the religion really says. I could NEVER break the commandment of not murdering, of not taking another person's life. Man, I have cried the few times I have killed birds when driving! Last year, I spent close to one whole day, 5 hours, at home and not going to work, because I had hurt a bird when driving out of the garage, and I cared for it for 5 hours in the garden with sugar-water, honey, carressing, you name it - and finally it flew away - while this stupid guy stood there crying for joy. Love and awe for life. Claiming that killing others is but an inch away is to me - sorry for using the word - blasphemy.

15

Should you be shunned? Not anymore!

by Beans in

new light right from the official web site of the jw`s.

http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm yes if you scroll down you will find this:.

do you shun former members?.

TheOldHippie

Messenger, you quote and state that "Disfellowshipped and disassociated ones are to be SHUNNED by those who wish to have a good relationship with Jehovah."
OK, but you fail to see the difference between one who disassociates himself through either a letter or by word to two or more, where he states that he no longer wishes to be considered a Witness - and one who, to repeat the Watchtower quoting, "ceases to be involved".
Formally disassociating oneself is a way of ending the "membership" so to speak, whereas one who ceases to be involved, just more or less slowly fades away, without ever making such a statement. He becomes irregular in the service and with respect to meeting attendance etc.
OK?

7

Who wrote Genesis?

by Sargon in

years ago i recall hearing theories that the first five books of the bible may not have been written by moses, and that in fact they may have had several different writers.

i know that the wts's stance on this is that moses did actually write these books.

reading my bible this morning, i came across a couple of passages wich may indicate that genesis did have at least two different authors.. following the death of his father, abram was commanded by his god to leave haran.

TheOldHippie

But your examples are not the very best in the world:
Sargon: Remember Moses lived hundreds of years after Abraham, and where is the difficulty in naming an area what it is called at the time of writing? It is like writing today that some settlers in 1650 came to New York, and then some critic stating that cannot be true, because it wasn't called New York at the time.
Farkel: Even all pro-Moses people agree that the chapters on his death were added later, for example by Joshua.
Some better examples are needed.

21

Why They fear 'Dateline'

by metatron in

whether or not the 'dateline' program ever airs, the watchtower.

society is still going to get pounded by bad press over the coming.

months and years.. why should they care?

TheOldHippie

Could some of the enlightened US folks please tell us desperately unenlighetened non-US folks what exactly the "Dateline" is? I see it referred to ever so often, but since all of you citizens of God's own country seem to be oh! so familiar with it, it is never explained to us heathens from the Dark Continents.
please?

8

Interesting NWT Stuff

by SYN in

got this in one of my xjw mailing lists, have a lookie guys!

flame away!.

examining translations with jehovah's witnesses.

TheOldHippie

The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures reads here:

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge[Gk ginosko]of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

The criticism often leveled here is against the rendering of 'ginosko' as "taking in knowledge".

Firstly, we have came upon criticism of the NWT here in a book(published in the UK),written by an ex-Jehovah's Witness(which must now be some 30yrs old or more since publication)who claimed that the NWT had wrongly 'altered' the Bible here and it should only be translated as "to know you"(as found in all the major Bible translations before and since.See also The NWT Reference Bible(1984)footnote). The writer attempted to make his point from citing the NT translation of R.F.Weymouth, The New Testament in Modern Speech, which reads:

"And in this consists the Life of the ages - in Knowing Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent"

But how he had failed to notice Weymouth's footnote to this scripture alludes us! We say this for Weymouth had written at the bottom of the page to this verse:

"knowing]Or, as the tense implies, 'an ever-enlarging knowledge of.'"(emphasis mine)

So Weymouth would not have been critical of the stance taken here by the NWT! Do you, reader, think this critic proved his contention? But since then others have called the NWT's translation here as a "mistranslation."-Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, 1993, p.44, Ron Rhodes

Interestingly, in the March 1st, 1992 issue of The Watchtower a one page article appeared 'Taking in Knowledge of God and Jesus'. It asked the question, "Why...does the New World Translation render this verse "taking in knowledge of...God" instead of "know...God," as most other translations of the Bible express it?" The article goes on to say, "..the rendering in the New World Translation is designed to bring out as fully as possible the meaning of that word[ginosko]. The basic meaning..is to"know," but the Greek word has various shades of meaning."

In agreement with the aforementioned article is what J.B.Rotherham stated in his appendix to his translation, The Emphasised New Testament,under 'Know', page 270, "Important shades of meaning are; "get to know(Jn. xvii.3,7,8,25), "understand"(1Jn.ii.3, 13; iv 16; v.20)and "approve," "acknowledge,"(Ps.i.6; Mt.vii.23; Ro.vii.29; 2 Tim.ii.19)

The Watchtower article then quotes from no less than 6 Greek-English Lexicons/commentaries.We will quote as the article does re the comments of Marvin R. Vincent on John 17:3 in his Word Studies in the New Testament:

"Eternal Life consists in knowledge, or rather the pursuit of knowledge, since the present tense marks a continuance, a progressive perception"

Vine's Expository Dictionary says,under 'know':

"GINOSKO...signifies to be taking in knowledge, to come to know, recognize, understand, or to understand completely..."

The Companion Bible says in it's Appendix 132:

"ginosko=to know(by experence, or effort); to acquire knowledge, become acquainted with; hence to come or get to know, learn, percieve..."

The Interpreters Bible says on this very verse: "Eternal life(vs.3), the summum bonum in this Gospel, as the kingdom of God is in the Synoptics, consists in the Knowledge of God-yet not the static knowledge of the Gnostics, but a progressive knowledge, "learning to know thee"(note the force of the present tense, [in-order-that you-may-be-knowing you]."

"...the present tense (GINWSKWSIN) marking that continual growth in the knowledge of God which is characteristic of spiritual life, as physical growth is a characteristic of bodily life."- The International Critical Commentary, St John, vol II, J. H. Bernard, Edinburgh, T & T Clark, 1928, p.561.-italics ours.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament states: "Should know (ginwskwsin). Present active subjunctive with ina (subject clause), "should keep on knowing." -italics ours.

Finally, Raymond Brown writes: "[John 17]3...they know you. Although some witnesses have a future indicative, the best witnesses have a present subjunctive; this implies that the knowledge is a continuing action."-The Gospel According to John, The Anchor Bible, Vol.29A.-italics ours.

Hence, The Complete Bible in Modern English(1922),by Ferrar Fenton reads;

"And the eternal life is this: to obtain a knowledge of You the only true God, and the Messiah Whom You have sent."

So if you come across any criticism of the NWT at John 17:3 with how it has rendered 'ginosko' there, you should be able to see that the critic has either not done his 'homework' or else, even worse, does not want to inform you fully of the facts. However, if you, the reader of the NWT Reference Edition of 1984, want, or prefer, the alternative rendering of "to know", then the footnote gives you that choice. It should be noted that the 1st edition of the NWT of 1950 also says in a footnote, "Or, "their knowing you." We wonder why the above 'critics' we alluded to/mentioned did not notice or know that too, or, even worse, if they did know, why they did not inform their readers of that fact. A case of informing or misinforming. We'll let you decide.

To read some more on this see Jehovah's Witnesses Defended, An Answer to Scholars and Critics(1st or 2nd editions)by Greg Stafford.

14

To rado: When the Watchtower fight against France

by chasson in

this discussion is poorly translated in english.

i have lost the different color of text too.. if someone could help me to translate better this article, see the original text in.

http://www.chez.com/tjrecherches/milstract.html.

TheOldHippie

If I give a hundred bucks to a French association, it isn't taxed
if it ISN'T recorded? Huh? So you can't accept donations without
tax if you make a record of what's in the box?
*********************************************************************
That is correct, Metatron - and the French association therefore muct pay 60 % because it has reported to the authorities the donations and presented records or receipts. Had they not, they would not have been taxed.
AND, in order to pay the 60 % taxes, the funds they now must collect to pay the authorities, will also be taxed 60 %, so in stead of collecting for example 30,000,000 dollars, they have to collect 75,000,000 dollars.
They had better try it with oral enclosures from now on ...............

7

Access to the KH Libary.

by jerome in

when you were a jw could you read any book that was in the kh libary any time you wanted?.

are the book like.

"millions now living will never die".

TheOldHippie

We have book dating all the time back to the first Millennium volumes, and Watchtowers from the 20s, and the library is open to all, no questions asked, so this question is a bit Big Brother Watching Me - like, is it not? Why there are restrictions to lending books out, is that they tend never to be returned. We have lost quite a few publications that way. We now have a book, a list, so as to be able to trace missing books. In the library is a copying machine and scanner, so people can copy and scan to the fullness of their heart. I have decorated the library with enlarged photos of Russell, Rutherford and other historic things, and it is appreciated.