Posts by Thirdson

12

The Real origin of the 1914 Doctrine

by barry in

jw
friends

i am a baptised seventh day adventist and ive had studies for about 6mths with a very nice jw lady.

ive learnt about the wt teachings and attended the kh and the memorial.

n there are some similarities with the adventist and jw teachings such as baptism by imersion, the state of the dead,some adventists dont vote and some adventists beleive with the wt society in the arian doctrine that jesus is a created being and the holy spirit is a force but the vast majority beleive the trinity doctrine.

Thirdson

Hi Barry,

Thanks for posting your thoughts on the start of the Adventist movement. I've learnt a great deal in the past 5 years about the early history of the JW religion.

My view is that these new unorthodox religions not only attracted flaky ideas about Biblical numerology and prophecy but also delved in to the pseudo-science popular in the late Victorian age. The Watchtower society has a history of promoting quack medical devices, promoting phrenology, promoting pyramidology denouncing real science (vaccinations etc), crusading against aluminum, and setting end-dates for the world.

Most of these things have gone now, quietly hidden or regarded as “old-light”. However, despite all the junk discarded on way, the idea about 1914 (one date out of numerous speculations) and the ban on blood transfusions remain. Most JWs don’t see these in the context of the bizarre former teachings and the modern explanation, however contrived, is believed. For the WTS, they have to retain these because the 1914 doctrine is crucial to the leadership’s position and “blood” would cause too many legal problems should they admit to their mistake.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

6

Telephone "witnessing"

by NikL in

jw
friends

the following presentations have been making the rounds at the local hall and on dub e mail.

i thought i might post them for your edification.. if you get a call and someone starts giving you one these spiels you can have some good answers ready perhaps.. anyway,.

here goes.... telephone witnessing.

Thirdson

I chewed out a telemarketer from MNBA this evening for calling after I requested not be called. I'm ready.

TELEPHONE WITNESSING

Caller: Hello, my name is sister Knowitall. I'm a volunteer Bible student and the…

Me: Is that like a volunteer firefighter?

Caller: Huh?

Me: A volunteer firefighter? You know, not a professional but does an OK job?

Caller: No I’m a Bible student and a volunteer.

Me: Oh, I’m a volunteer TV watcher

Caller: Well......the reason I called you today is because I'm unable to come and see you personally.

Me: I’m sorry to hear you are not well.

Caller: Umm, I'm interested in getting your view on whether a genuinely happy life is possible. What do you think?

Me: I am very happy so I think a happy life is possible. Are you happy?

Caller: Er yes, er because the Bible tells us it is at Psalms 1:1, 2. (reads it) You can see the importance of studying the Bible so I would like to offer you a free home Bible study. There is no charge and it takes only 15 minutes a week for 16 weeks

Me: No thanks, usually there is no charge for free things, besides I can study the Bible for 15 hours a week and it is still free. Have I been pre-approved for this?

Caller: No, well yes, everyone is approved for this. I would be glad to bring the brochure we use to your home.

Me: A brochure? Is this to sell me more studies?

Caller: No, this brochure is what we study.

Me: I thought you offered a study of the Bible?

Caller: It is, but we use a brochure as well.

Me: I already have a study system of my own and my own beliefs,

Caller: No doubt you do. But regardless of our religion we are affected by many of the same problems..

Me: Like annoying telemarketers?

Caller: Huh? I’m not selling anything.

Me: But you’re annoying.

Caller: WELL WE believe we have an urgent and life saving work

Me: So your religion can save me?

Caller: Yes,

Me: I’m already saved and I’m going to live in heaven.

Caller: We believe that everyone will be resurrected to live on Earth.

Me: That doesn’t sound as good as my current religion. So it’s not very tempting. Do you offer a low introductory penitence rate.

Caller: I’m sorry you seem to be wasting my time.

Me: Your time, what about my time? Can I talk to your supervisor?

Caller: Why?

Me: So I can be removed from your list.

Caller: Uhmmm, I don’t have a supervisor, I’ll report that you don’t want to be called on. Bye

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

4

Making Jesus Say More than he Said.

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

farkel wrote an excellent piece (as always) on matthew 25 and the wts version of what jesus meant as if jesus meant something he didnt say.

this is a similar subject and takes a piece from the greatest man book which for some reason i found myself flicking through again.

(i previously posted a short piece on the prodigal son) it is sad in a way, i kept this book thinking it may have some value as a commentary on the life of jesus but on rereading sections of it i feel inclined to toss it away.. so many times the book interjects its interpretation of what jesus meant and in chapter 63 there is a contradiction in the line of reasoning.

Thirdson

Farkel wrote an excellent piece (as always) on Matthew 25 and the WTS version of what Jesus meant as if Jesus meant something he didn’t say. This is a similar subject and takes a piece from the Greatest Man book which for some reason I found myself flicking through again. (I previously posted a short piece on the Prodigal Son) It is sad in a way, I kept this book thinking it may have some value as a commentary on the life of Jesus but on rereading sections of it I feel inclined to toss it away.

So many times the book interjects its interpretation of what Jesus meant and in chapter 63 there is a contradiction in the line of reasoning. In this chapter it covers the portion of the gospels (Luke 9:49,50 and Mark 9 38-50) where the disciples complain to Jesus that a certain man is expelling demons in Jesus’ name even though he is not one of the accompanying disciples. In response Jesus tells them to leave the man alone with the words “he that is not against us is for us.”

This sentiment recorded twice in the gospels goes against the WTS idea that “he that is not for us is against us and God.” To explain this the Greatest Man book says:

It was not necessary for this man to follow Jesus to be on his side. The Christian congregation had not been set up, so his not being part of the their group did not mean that he was of a separate congregation.

Jesus doesn’t exactly say that. He simply said “he that is not against is for us.” He made no mention of congregations nor added caveats on when this man should stop what he was doing and join this “congregation”. But to leave Jesus words at face value might cause problems to the WTS belief system of having to take sides, of which, only their side of full obedience to the WTS is the right side.

The second portion in this same chapter where the WTS puts its own slant on things is our beloved Matthew 18; you know, that bit about handling problems. If after failing to resolve the issue in person or with one or two witnesses, Jesus says “speak to the congregation.” The Greatest Man book says:

Jesus says, take the matter to “the congregation,” that is, to the responsible overseers of the congregation who can render a judicial decision.

Here lies the contradiction, if previously Jesus was talking about a man who wasn’t a member of the congregation of Christians because it didn’t exist why does he frame this answer about a congregation? Is it or is it not the Christian congregation? And where do the overseers come in? They did not exist at the time Jesus spoke these words. No one is going to argue over the precise meaning of the Greek word translated as “congregation” surely? Jesus meant what he said.

The WTS can’t accept Jesus simple instructions. Jesus didn’t say take it to the overseers, who will form a committee of three and judge the person and then enforce public humiliation. Even if the matter is unresolved Jesus said, “let him be to you just as a man of the nations.” He didn’t say, “let him be to the congregation just as a man of the nations.”

I suppose, if you create a religion full of rules and regulations and an idea that everyone is against you, then you have to twist the Bible to make it fit your doctrines. If you believe that you are appointed to dish out the “meat in due season” you can flavor it anyway you like. Besides, if you believe the Greek scriptures were written for, and about, just your own elite group you can add to it anyway you like.

I haven’t thrown the book out, yet. I've put it on the very top shelf out of sight. I can’t be reading that anymore. It seems to have no redeeming value and is just part of the collection (very small) of books saved as a shaming reminder of my former belief system.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

Edited for missing slashes

17

risk taking

by joelbear in

jw
friends

well, i'm getting closer and closer to turning my life upside down and breaking away from my 43 years of conservative living.

any risk experiences out there?.

the risk i want to take is leaving banking, living a much more bohemiam life, maybe work as a waiter or bartender or something, go to school, travel, work on my furniture art, write, read, live.. aaaack.

Thirdson

Joel,

Sometimes you've just got to take the risk because if you don't you'll be old, regretting the missed opportunities.

Like some here, I made the decision to up sticks and try something different. It wasn't greatly adventurous but moving countries and culture is not always easy. We sold up, house, furniture and lots of other belongings when I accepted a job in the US. Our decision (based on my contract) was "why not try it for two years and enjoy doing something different". My then-wife enjoyed it so much she left me as well...good for her.

As for me, I got my green card, bought a house, and found someone to love.

If we'd have stayed put my wife would still likely have left me. And I'd be doubly miserable regretting missed opportunities.

There are plenty of things I've skipped or avoided. Growing up a JW doesn't help one bit. It is time for trying new things. You only live once, you might as well enjoy it.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

174

get a life -- 10 facts

by joelbear in

jw
friends

i thought it would be interesting for people to just post a few things about themselves so we can get to know each other just a bit.. try posting 10 facts about your life.. joel.

1. i was born and raised in south georgia.. 2. my favorite subject in school was math.. 3. i was in the fulltime service (bethel and pioneer) for 4 years.. 4. my favorite color is blue.. 5. mitch and i have been together over 12 years.. 6. we live in a suburb of atlanta georgia.. 7. we love to eat out and have friends over for dinner and board games.. 8. the only sport i was ever any good at is tennis.. 9. my favorite tv show of all time is the simpsons.. 10. we are both naturists and wish we could lay on the beach naked every day.

Thirdson

Ten known and lesser known facts

1. I was born in the UK, have 4 brothers and one sister, all raised as JWs, only two remain in.
2. I married last year (2nd time around) the most wonderful person who I met by chance and never dreamed I could ask her out…(she gave lots of less than subtle hints)
3. I have circumnavigated the globe & crossed the Atlantic 18 times.
4. Minnesota is home but I have been a resident of Australia as well.
5. I am a mechanical engineer but work in software development having retrained in the early 90’s.
6. I qualified for a FAI ‘A’ Certificate as a parachutist.
7. I like dark beers, red wine and scotch. My favorite dishes are curries and I cook my own.
8. I like female vocalists in the main but have a number of classic albums from the likes of Fleetwood Mac, the Beatles, the Beach boys and Queen but in my car you’ll also find classical recordings and opera.
9. I watch F1 racing on Sunday mornings (spring and summer) and Football (NFL style) on Sunday afternoons (fall and winter)
10. I have one son who I have joint custody of and a cat who has full custody of everyone else.

COMF is my pal ‘cause he shaved at least 13 years of my age recently – I’m 41.

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

15

how do i get a divorce when no one has.......

by jazz in

jw
friends

commited adultery my wife and i are headed in that direction what should i tell the brothers?

we are doing so because she just doesnt trust me anymore ?

Thirdson

Jazz,

In the weird logic of the WTS you can get divorced without repercussions as long as you don’t remarry or commit fornication. Instead sleep with your ex-wife after the divorce after which you will have committed fornication and thus are scriptually free to divorce and remarry. You might get DF’d but the number of partners doesn’t go up and your excuse would be sleeping with the person your weren’t scriptually separated from.

This is not serious solution just the bizarre way of getting around WTS rules and regulations. It all depends on what you really want from your marriage, life and JW association.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

3

Who is a Prodigal Son?

by Thirdson in

jw
friends

on occasion i have commented on the difference between the compassion of jesus and the lack of mercy shown by the wts.

i had reason to reread the story of the prodigal son recently and i thought id compare the wts writing in the greatest man book to what i take the parable to mean.. you know the story jesus told.

boy leaves home with his inheritance, lives the good life, spends it all and hits rock-bottom.

Thirdson

On occasion I have commented on the difference between the compassion of Jesus and the lack of mercy shown by the WTS. I had reason to reread the story of the Prodigal Son recently and I thought I’d compare the WTS writing in the Greatest Man book to what I take the parable to mean.

You know the story Jesus told. Boy leaves home with his inheritance, lives the good life, spends it all and hits rock-bottom. He goes home to dad with the idea of being a hired servant. To his surprise his dad is so happy to have his son back he barely listens to words of remorse and dresses his son in finery and orders up a feast to celebrate the return of his lost son. His other son, the faithful hard-working one is mightily miffed that the wayward son gets to enjoy such undeserved kindness (grace) and lets it be known.

It’s not hard to discern what Jesus what getting at from the parable. His mercy and compassion is shown to the undeserving sinners. God is prepared to wipe the slate clean and happy to receive any that are repentant. The Pharisees on the other hand, the Greatest Man book explains, are like the older son who complain about the attention shown to the repentant but wasteful younger son. That is, perhaps, true to some extent.

So far so good with the WTS. However, when it comes to our time the WTS can’t stick to the simple illustration of the magnitude of God’s grace, the seemingly unfair way God is prepared to extend mercy and compassion. No, the parable has do with disaffected anointed JW’s who become the “evil slave”. I missed this previously but the Greatest Man book makes this comment:

The older son represents some members of the “little flock” or “congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens.” These adopted an attitude similar to that of the older son. They had no desire to welcome an earthly class, the “other sheep,” who they felt were stealing the limelight. Greatest Man – Chapter 86

So according to the Watchtower some complaining “anointed” got upset because other people of lesser hope wanted to join Rutherford and co? And this is what Jesus was talking about? I think that is a bit contrived to say the least. How did I miss that before…I must have studied the book at least twice and a couple of chapters three times?

So who is the Prodigal Son? You guessed it Jehovah’s Witnesses, but not the good the ones.

The prodigal son, on the other hand, represents those of God’s people who leave to enjoy the pleasures that the world offers. In time, however, these repentantly return and again become active servants of God. (bold mine) Greatest Man – Chapter 86

But Jesus didn’t say that. The Pharisees’ complaint was about Jesus’ association and ministry to the tax collectors and sinners. (Luke 15: 1,2) Immediately prior to the parable Jesus uses two illustrations to explain the joy in heaven about the repentance of one sinner. He gave the illustration of the lost sheep out of a flock of one hundred and the lost drachma coin out of ten. In both illustrations the finders rejoice with their friends, not about the fact that they have ninety-nine sheep or nine coins, but that the single lost ones are found. Just as the illustrations are perverse in ignoring the non-lost items so the parable of the prodigal son is seemingly unfair in the lavish attention shown to the returned but sinning son.

My opinion is that Jesus through hyperbole is illustrating the magnitude of God’s grace. Actually, all of us are like the prodigal son but by our own standards of righteousness we are in danger of acting like the older son. Jesus doesn’t explain what happens to he older son according to the Greatest Man book. But I don’t think he has to. In my opinion this character is used to amplify the extent and generosity of God’s grace granted to all sinners.

It has nothing to do with wayward and inactive JW’s, but then again it does. It applies to all of humankind you, me and the most self-righteous JW elder. We’re not any different in God’s eyes and what we receive in grace is totally unmerited.

When simple illustrations get so twisted no wonder love, compassion and mercy go out the door. The writers of the Watchtower and the various WTS doctrinal books get so wrapped up in technicalities of doctrine, self history and rule making that they loose sight of the simple teachings of Jesus. They may call themselves Christians but I find it hard to find the spirit of the Christ in most of their writings.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

11

How long is a creation day?

by cosmo in

jw
friends

i've asked quite a few jw's and it seems the answer varies.

some say 1000 years other say 6,000 or 7,000 years.. only one gave me a answer that i found logical.

a creative day has no set amount of time.

Thirdson

Hey Waiting,

It was one of those subtle changes. Thanks for the credit of "adjustment" but I am only one of many who add bits to the extensive research of others.

Regarding the 7000 year long days (not to be confused with 2520-year-long times of 7, of years, of days -- a well loved Farkelism) do you remember the NWT appendix to the time period covered by Genesis? Later versions state '"In the beginning" to 1657 BCE.' The 1961 edition read something like "46026 BCE to 1657 BCE" (I guess the creation originally started on Monday, October 1, 46026 BCE at 9:00 A.M. after breakfast and the day's text.) Does anyone have an old copy of the NWT to verify?

I used the change in the NWT and the lack of the number 7000 in the Creation book to question an elder (the smelly slipper one no less) about the change when the book was covered as talk #1 in the TMS. He said he'd get back to me...he didn't.

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

11

How long is a creation day?

by cosmo in

jw
friends

i've asked quite a few jw's and it seems the answer varies.

some say 1000 years other say 6,000 or 7,000 years.. only one gave me a answer that i found logical.

a creative day has no set amount of time.

Thirdson

Modern geology (modern being used loosely) causes too many problems for life to have been around for less than 49,000 years . Doesn't stop the WTS quoting a young Earth geologist from the 1920's to back them up in the Creator book. It helps not list any source for quotes as well.

How long is a creative day? How long is a ball of string?

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'

119

Validity of 607 BCE date

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

has anyone on here ever come across the tiniest shred of evidence supporting this date for the fall of jerusalem.

i understand rolf furuli is about to but something out on this subject (see elihubooks.com), however even a table of contents has been a long time in coming from this site.

if no evidence exists what can he possibly be writing about?

Thirdson

My Bible contains neither the date 607 BCE or 587 BCE. It doesn't have a date of 539 BCE, 537 BCE or 14 AD. So all its chronology has to be tied to secular dates. As to when the "70" years began check what the Bible actually says about the beginning event.

Don't forget "the Society" (Scholar's term) used to say 606 BCE as the date for Jerusalem's destruction and adjusted the year to fit 1914 for its totally unrelated set of number crunching (2520 years).

Thirdson

'To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing'