Billygoat,I think you should let us be the judge of that!
Posts by toddy
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46POLL: Occupations
by Angst inas a witness what occupation did/do you hold?.
i was speaking with a friend of mine that is a former witness and we remarked about how many of us have worked in some sort of janitorial work.
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Brain dead JWs
by Stealth inhere is a prefect example of the; dont confuse us with the facts mentality of most jws.. .
http://www.greatcrowd.com/159ubb/forum22/html/000263.html.
sorry folks, the whole board moved over night and it looks like they did'nt bring any of the old posts with them.
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toddy
Is my eyesight going or is the bloke on the right in a white shirt propped up against a bar?
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toddy
logical,This picture was on the news recently,it was proven to have been altered.
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'Lost' redux
by Rex B13 inbeing lost...is of course, the usual state of things here.
what's surprising is that they (the lost) think that pulling scriptures out of context, isolating mosaic laws mean't for one purpose and one time, is somehow refuting scripture.. they like to ignore the fact that jesus is the revealed yahweh and he sets the mark, not any organisation nor any pious individual.
we relate scripture to him and we interpret scripture by his life amongst mankind.
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toddy
tdogg,glad you liked it,although i can't take the credit for it,i came across it while searching about religion,
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'Lost' redux
by Rex B13 inbeing lost...is of course, the usual state of things here.
what's surprising is that they (the lost) think that pulling scriptures out of context, isolating mosaic laws mean't for one purpose and one time, is somehow refuting scripture.. they like to ignore the fact that jesus is the revealed yahweh and he sets the mark, not any organisation nor any pious individual.
we relate scripture to him and we interpret scripture by his life amongst mankind.
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toddy
Among people, belief has many definitions. When explaining the four levels of experience, the most important definition is, “Something accepted as true without evidence.”
Belief is the uncritical acceptance that something is true – evidence is not an issue. And that is why belief can be dangerous. If someone can inspire belief without having to supply evidence, that person gains total control.
There are few things more comforting than knowing that something is absolutely true, with no room for doubt. This is why belief is like an addictive drug – it suspends reason as drugs do. And, just as with drugs, people exposed to the feeling of uncritical belief find they need more of that feeling over time.
The first danger with belief lies with the source of beliefs. If a leader can lie and be believed, that person's followers are in great danger. True believers generally do not suddenly wake up and say, “Wait a minute! This makes no sense!” That is because this kind of reasoning ability doesn't spring up all at once – it takes years of training. And True Believers don't spend those years learning how to think.
This is why Jim Jones was able to tell 914 of his followers to drink poison, lie down and die (British Guiana, 1978). This is why David Koresh was able to persuade 75 of his followers to stay inside a burning building and die (Waco, Texas, 1993). This is why about 500 members of the Ugandan “Movement for the Restoration of the 10 Commandments” could agree to a mass suicide and be led into their church, which was then set on fire, killing them all (Uganda, 2000). Just to name a few prominent examples.People who have religious beliefs may think this is a bleak view of religion and belief – after all, not everyone who is religious commits suicide or even thinks about such things. But please think – if you flew with an airline, wouldn't you like to know their safety record over time? How many airplanes get to the destination safely, and how many crash and burn?
In fairness, the same questions could be asked about religion – what are the available destinations, and how safe is the ride? Are there other ways to get to the same destination? But no. Although these questions are always asked about airlines, they are never asked about religions.
In fact, because of a gradual increase in the number of religious mass suicides and their death toll, and a similar gradual decrease in airline fatalities, if you choose the appropriate time interval you can argue that more people die in churches than airliners. Of course, if you are able to think at the higher levels, you will instantly see the flaws in this argument – it's true but quite meaningless. Do you see why? Go ahead, think about it.
For those of you who have possessed religious beliefs all your life, please read this article very carefully. It is not meant to doubt your faith or your commitment. It is meant only to encourage you to think.
Religion relies on human spirituality – an individual experience – as its energy source. Without human spirituality, religion would have no appeal. It is fair to say that religion is the marketing of spirituality. Just like any business, religion packages its product (spirituality), delivers it and receives compensation.
But, as with the rest of retail marketing, it is not enough to have a product and customers. You must make your product unique, set it apart, then encourage consumers to switch from another product to yours.
So religion's promoters are faced with a bunch of potential customers who possess a lot of natural human spirituality – people who might simply stand in the middle of a field, look at the stars, and marvel at their number, the vast distances, and the insignificance of this little planet (just an example – substitute your own favorite spiritual experience). People who might simply feel grateful to be alive, to be able to witness all that beauty. What does religion do to attract those people into a building, get them to join up, put money in a plate? Here is how one might build a religion:Explain that ordinary experience is not valid, that standing in a field looking at stars is simply ignorant.
Appropriate people's common-sense behavioral rules – gleaned from everyday experience and shared human tradition – and give them the mantle of divine wisdom. Claim that morals emanate from religion, not from everyday experience. In other words, take common sense, rename it “commandments.”
Invent a prophet, so there is no excuse left for people to interact with nature directly any more. In other words, instead of acknowledging that spiritual truths are everywhere, claim that there is only one true path to enlightenment/salvation/whatever, and your church has it for sale.
Tell your followers that they are special, chosen, superior to all those other people who don't “believe.” Encourage them to feel separate and then become separate. Explain how the expression “God is love” can be meaningfully translated into “If only you weren't so ignorant, you would join my church and share my beliefs.”
Instead of allowing your followers to comparison-shop, tell them it is their duty to convert other people to the One True Faith. Tell them the most effective way to do this is to always talk but never listen.
This is why religions have been the source of so much suffering in human history – religion isolates people while explaining this is a good thing. Non-believers should not be respected, they should be converted (or killed). As a result, the very best thing that can happen to you in a church is – nothing. The worst? You might be invited to partake of a cyanide-laced sacrament. Even worse, you might do it willingly.
Religion is openly hostile to facts and ideas, the two experience levels above belief. This is because the application of even a few trivial facts undermines religion, and the application of ideas makes religion look downright ridiculous. Therefore, like greedy international corporations, religions have always tried to silence thinkers (their natural competition) throughout history.
Here's one of those stories. Giordano Bruno was a thinker, very far ahead of his time, who anticipated relativity theory in the late 1500s by saying:
"This entire globe, this star, not being subject to death, and dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in Nature, from time to time renews itself by changing and altering all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the center of things."
This and other writings of Bruno came to the attention of the Church, which realized this way of looking at the universe made the Church seem unimportant (in those days, religious dogma had it that Earth was the only center of the universe, Rome was the center of the earth, and the Church as the center of Rome). So, after unsuccessfully ordering Bruno to recant his ideas, they took him outside and burned him at the stake.
Well, okay, this shows one difference between old-style religion and the new kind. In the old days, religious people mostly killed other people, especially members of other religions. Now (apart from some exceptions like killing health care workers who happen to be in a clinic that advocates or performs abortions), they mostly kill themselves.
But why should this be so surprising? Western religions generally explain that life on Earth is much less important than what follows – the afterlife. So religious people naturally feel an impulse to move along – if Planet Earth is really just a bus station in Kansas, and the afterlife is the “real thing,” well, let's get on with it!
Religious followers, being True Believers, usually don't figure out that all the talk about the afterlife is just a way to get them to tolerate things they shouldn't. In the everyday world, if you want a raise, you ask for it. You boss might say, “Next week, okay?” and you can await the outcome. But if a religious leader says, “Your reward is in the hereafter,” what exactly are your options?
Business owners much prefer to hire religious people (unless any originality or creativity is needed in the job, of course) because they are such sheep. This would be less remarkable except that religious writings are filled with references to sheep and flocks – why don't people get it? So, as a result of this, there are forces in society that most definitely support the religious outlook, forces having nothing to do with spirituality (assuming religion has anything to do with spirituality). Businesses want to exploit their labor force, and religion is a perfect training ground for that exploitation.
But this is all less important than the biggest problem with belief, which I have saved for last. Belief keeps people from adapting to change. Belief is a fixed, rigid system, but nature's requirements constantly change. This guarantees the True Believers will be left behind over time. They can burn a few people at the stake for a while, blow up a few health care clinics, murder a few doctors, but pretty quickly the world moves on and leaves them in the dust.
Here's an example. At one time, it was accepted as immoral not to have a large family. There was a lot of unoccupied land, and people were dying left and right from diseases. Small families were seen as immoral in both in the conventional moral sense (agreement between people) and in the religious moral sense (religious dogma).
Now (at the time I write this) there are six billion people and counting. The human population doubles every forty years. This means:
We are going to have to learn family planning, or
A lot of children are going to starve to death.
There is no option three, no “feed all the hungry.” That is quite impossible. Every time we double food production capacity, the world's population doubles also. Pretty soon, every new child born will guarantee that another child will die. That is nature's math, not mine.
Because of this change since biblical times, in the conventional moral sense (agreement between people), it is now immoral to have a large number of children. Why? Because of human suffering, a cause not even listed among religion's priorities. But in a religious moral sense (religious dogma), it is still moral, even a duty, to have large numbers of children – religion hasn't adjusted to reality. In fact, worldwide and in general, religions will not even allow family planning knowledge or skills to be shared among their followers.
Why? Why would religion allow this tragedy to unfold? For our answer, we need only look at the history of religion. Religion always fights change, to the extent of murdering the messengers of change. And, of course, there's always those business owners, supporters of religion, for whom a system that perpetually produces more exploitable workers and customers is a dream beyond imagining.
In the largest sense, belief brings evolution to a halt. It stops the music of the human family, the movement that makes us who we are, that allows us to respond to nature's constantly changing requirements. Yes, belief is comforting to individuals, but it trades comfort for the suicide of an entire species.
To move beyond belief, we must listen to nature's messages (facts, the next experience level) and then we must become nature's partner by shaping our own experience in cooperation with nature (ideas, the highest level).
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What is the true religion?
by toddy inwritten by timothy campbell .
ex-witnesses, and witnesses with grave doubts about the society, often ask the question, "if the witnesses aren't the true religion, what is?".
some people who have disconnected from the society refrain from asking this question.
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toddy
Written by Timothy Campbell
To Whom Shall We Go?
Ex-Witnesses, and Witnesses with grave doubts about the Society, often ask the question, "If the Witnesses aren't the true religion, what is?"
Some people who have disconnected from the Society refrain from asking this question. They adopt the uncomfortable position that the Witnesses are indeed the True Religion, but due to some inherent flaw in themselves they can not participate. These people understandably suffer from feelings of guilt and inadequacy. They may continue to identify themselves as "inactive Witnesses" rather than "ex-Witnesses", even if they've only attended a few meetings in the past year. They are forever on the verge of leaving. In a way, their difficult situation is similar to the story of the donkey who was positioned exactly halfway between two stacks of hay: he couldn't make up his mind which way to go, and starved. In much the same way, these people end up being spiritually hungry, never able to choose or find a viable source of spiritual nourishment.
Other ex-Witnesses reject the Watchtower Society outright, but believe that they must now seek out the real True Religion. Sometimes such people jump aboard the first religion that resembles the Witnesses -- usually fundamentalist in nature -- and become "born again". Some ex-Witnesses search for a while, become frustrated, and give up on religion altogether. Such people may become atheists or agnostics.
A few ex-Witnesses may actively seek out a religion that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the one they left. They may find satisifaction in following a non-Western way of thinking, such as Buddhism, Daoism or Hinduism. A few others may embrace New Age religions which are hybrids of Christianity, Eastern mysticism, and (in some cases) shrewd marketing.
Randomly Biased Choices
Nobody picks a religion completely at random, but random effects do affect our choice. For example, if you lived next door to a Lutheran church, you would be slightly more likely to become a Lutheran than to join a church which required you to drive for two hours to get to meetings.
Your choice can be influenced by your parents and forebears. Their influence is echoed in the famous song, "Gimme That Old Time Religion", which looks far into the past as it declares, "If it was good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me." Those who came before certainly have an effect on those who come after. If your parents were Jehovah's Witnesses, it's unlikely that you'll start out in some other religion.
Your choice is also based on what you've heard -- particularly from people you respect. Such people are "giving a good witness" for their particular belief system.
One of the strongest influences on your choice of religion is culture. It is rare for people raised in an Islamic country to suddenly become Christians. Such people are seldom exposed to the message of Christianity. Also, in countries where Islam is fundamentalist, a potential Christian would have to face social stigma. As for people growing up in Communist China, their chances of encountering Western ideas about religion are extremely limited.
To turn things around a bit, people in Western countries tend to have a negative view of Islam, for political reasons. They also do not have access to expressions of Eastern religions that have been tailored to fit the West. For example, someone who wishes to learn about Zen Buddhism is frequently required to adopt Japanese ways which are not really integral to the message of Zen. These Japanese affectations can make the philosophy inaccessible.
Our choice of religion can be biased and constrained in many ways.
Nonsense Versus Benefits
Some people maintain that there is no true religion because (they say) religion is a fundamentally nonsensical idea. This is the position taken by some (but by no means all) evolutionists. One notorious example is Richard Dawkins (author of the ground-breaking book "The Selfish Gene"). He seems to have a rather mechanistic view of things, and maintains that religion is the intellectual equivalent of a virus.
As such, a religion would be merely another process trying to survive. By reducing the question of religion in this way, we focus solely on the benefits of religion to a group of people (and the religion itself), but say nothing about "truth". This is not as bad as it may sound.
If we accept the view taken by people like Dawkins, we are compelled to shift the emphasis from "truth" to "utility" (i.e. benefits). That is to say, we are assuming that for a religion to survive, it must provide benefits to its adherents. As such, a religion may be nonsensical (or incomprehensible) but its survival proves that it is not useless.
Given this point of view, we might judge a religion subjectively, asking, "Does it make me happy?" or objectively: "Does it satisfy a large number of people?"
What is Truth?
Is it possible for a religion that is utterly false to provide actual benefits? That depends on what you mean by "false". A religion's doctrines may not stand up well to its critics, but its rituals and social milieu may address basic human needs. The specific doctrines may not withstand scrutiny, but since they reinforce the social milieu, they gain a measure of validity. The believers may not be interested in a deep analysis of their basic beliefs, because they can plainly see that it "delivers the goods". If we argue this point, we may find ourselves in the absurd position of telling somebody, "You only think you're happy!"
Since the religion has shown that its doctrines can successfully strike a resonant chord in its members, it can be considered at least "relatively true" even if it can't be considered "absolutely true". That is to say, the basic machinery of the religion produces positive results, so it must accurately reflect something about its members.
What is True About "The Truth"?
Ex-Witnesses, since they were once Witnesses, may have the idea that a religion must be true in the absolute sense. Indeed, it takes some ex-Witnesses a long time to stop referring to their former religion as "The Truth".
Yet the Watchtower Society's "New Light" doctrine is based on the idea that even the Society isn't infallible. Despite falling short of perfection, the Society has provided many people with a satisfactory religious experience. They must be doing some things right: several million people are perfectly happy to be Jehovah's Witnesses.
What is "true" about the Witnesses? For one thing, it is true that people like to have a sense of being one of the elect few, having a sense of certainty, and delving deeply into mysteries that baffle others. Whether or not Witness teachings are true in the absolute sense does not change the fact that Witnesses gain the benefits just mentioned -- and many more, besides.
A Desperate Search
Ex-Witnesses have to deal with the shock of finding out that the religion they thought was True is, in fact, just another religion with a particular set of benefits and flaws.
Some ex-Witnesses acquire a compelling urge to find the One True religion -- the one that knows all and reveals all. Even after they leave the Witnesses (which they once thought was nearly perfect), they may retain the feeling that the ideal religion is out there -- if only they could find it.
The Challenge of Change
Most mainstream religions (specifically, those not centred around a single person) are run by people (usually men) who are fine, upstanding folks with motives that are basically good and pure. That may not have been the case in earlier times, but what with the separation of church and state, plus the eagle eye of the media, a religion wastes less energy and takes less risk by running a clean operation.
The trouble is, no person (or group of people) can know everything. They can not fathom every subtle nuance of every possible doctrine. For this reason religions hold councils, or gatherings, meetings of a governing body, or convocations of elders. Matters that were previously cast in stone must be examined from time to time -- and sometimes changed. The Watchtower Society calls this "New Light". Other religions may call it something else. To quote a popular saying, they seek "Progress, not Perfection".
All religions have to progress to keep pace with the secular world. That is to say, religions in the modern world are constantly subjected to tests of their interpretations. For example, there once was a time when people thought that lightning was a sign of God's disapproval. This is rather hard to square away with the easily observed fact that lightning prefers hitting the tallest object in the area -- which is frequently the steeple of a church! (Well, perhaps ardent Witnesses wouldn't find that so surprising...)
A religion that tries to resist the march of science or fashions in liberal thinking must expend more and more energy to hold back the tide of contrary ideas. Keeping this in mind, even the staid Catholic church has recently admitted that evolution is more than "just a theory". (Hardly a ringing endorsement, but nevertheless a significant change.)
So Who's Perfect?
There is no religion that has never made a mistake, because there is no religion run by perfect people. So it is, and so it has been. This is seen in the words of the Old Testament prophets, who frequently pointed out the failings of the Israelites and (in some cases) their rulers.
Of course, some religions try to withstand the battering-ram of science and -- to some extent -- try to seem "perfect". Such religions must expend enormous energy trying to keep their members in line with the current "understanding". The more energy a religion must expend in this task, the more totalitarian it must become. In such cases, difficult questions and open inquiry are not encouraged. Access to information must be controlled, or at least channeled. Ex-Witnesses know this all too well. While the Society does not "blacklist" specific books and web sites, Witnesses implicitly know that they should not read anything critical written by an ex-Witness. Such writings are condemned under the general banner of apostate propaganda.
Who Owns You?
We've already established that no religion is perfect. So how do you choose which one to follow? Is that a fair question?
There is no rule written across the sky in blazing letters which says that you have to pick a particular religion and condemn all the others. Perhaps, if somebody asks you, "What religion do you belong to?" you could reply, "None. But why don't you ask me what my religion is?"
What your religion is doesn't have to have a name. You can decide (to the best of your ability) what constitutes your religion. You might believe, for example, that "You should love your neighbour as yourself". That single statement would be a solid foundation for your personal religion -- and quite frankly it wouldn't be an easy rule to follow faithfully.
There's nothing wrong with going to a Catholic mass in the morning, a rollicking Evangelical meeting in the afternoon, and a meditation center in the evening. There is something good about all three. The question is: are you going to let one group "own" you? To put it another way: do you really want to be in a position where you are given a list of beliefs that you must accept to avoid censure?
A Slice of Truth
If you had been raised as a Presbyterian, you might still be one. You might find that it suits your needs, and you're not overly concerned about the small details. It gives you a taste of the divine, along with a social setting. There's nothing wrong with that.
However, if you have rejected the Jehovah's Witnesses, you are likely to probe more deeply into matters. You already know what it is like to believe something is "The Truth" when in fact it is only a small slice of the truth, adorned with abstruse chronologies and myriad rules.
Applying What You've Learned
You may chose a particular church as your "home base" -- preferably one without a list of absolute doctrines that you can't fully accept. But since you've learned (the hard way) just how easily our understanding can be confused and undermined, you have a skill that few people acquire: you have the ability to say, "Oh, really?" You have dared to ask difficult questions, and you have dared to listen for the answers.
Sometimes, though, the answer to a difficult question is silence. This is hard to take, and this is where everybody -- even atheists -- need faith. We need to believe that the silence will eventually be broken. Maybe not in our lifetime, but surely at some time.
As you pursue the answers to your questions, don't be frightened by occasional silence. It is preferable to the noise and flash with which many religions fill in the unknown areas. True religion is not a fireworks exhibition.
We dare not to know, in order that one day we can truly know.
The Religious Process
You are responsible for finding your own salvation, however you define that term. You can benefit from the input of wise men and (hopefully) reject the blathering of fools. But ultimately, you are the one who chooses. It is up to you -- and only you -- to pick for yourself the wise course of action.
True religion is not a single choice. It is a never-ending series of choices -- sometimes because we've made mistakes, and sometimes because we've entered new territory. Religion in general is about Purpose, but true religion is also about flexibility To be part of true religion is to be teachable, and that requires both honesty and humility.
True religion lurks everywhere. It's around every corner. Wherever there are people who are earnestly searching for answers, who are willing to give up cherished notions if necessary -- there you will find true religion.
True religion resides in each of us. The challenge is to set it free.
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Meteor Strike!
by toddy inrecently we have seen the devastating effects just two planes can cause within a built up area,imagine what the effects would be if a meteor struck this planet.. my question is,are we taking this threat seriously,is enough money being put into discovering and tracking these meteors?
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toddy
Recently we have seen the devastating effects just two planes can cause within a built up area,imagine what the effects would be if a meteor struck this planet.
My question is,are we taking this threat seriously,is enough money being put into discovering and tracking these meteors? -
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So, okay you 'christians', what does God REALLY
by AGuest ini would exhort you to first ask... and then listen... to the master's voice on the matter, and if you cannot 'hear'... or exercise faith in what you 'hear'... then go to the 'scriptures'.
for indeed, it is 'written'... in the scriptures.
it is not, however, 'written' in the letters, histories, chronologies and gospels.
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toddy
AGuest,what in Gods name are you on about???
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just to lighten the mood
by toddy inreligious parrots.
a lady approaches a priest and tells him, "father, i have a problem.
i have these two talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing.
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toddy
Religious Parrots
A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem. I have these two talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest asked.
"They only know how to say, 'Hi, we're prostitutes.Do you want to have some fun?'""That's terrible!" the priest exclaimed." I have a solution for your
problem. Bring your female parrots over to the rectory, and I will put them with my two male parrots, whom I have taught to pray and read the Bible. My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase, and your female parrots will learn to pray and worship."The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the rectory.
The male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.
The lady puts her parrots in with the male parrots, and the females say,
"Hi, we're prostitutes! Do you want to have some fun?"
One male parrot looks over at the other and squawks,
"Put your beads away, Frank, our prayers have been answered!" -
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My "Peculiarity"...
by AGuest inbut... i could not hide it.
"but isn't that a good thing?
you are able to hide... nothing.
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toddy
Dear AGuest,i have to admit i have had trouble understanding previous posts written by you but i think i get this one,are you relating your dream/vision to what strenth peoples beliefs are,take me,i have no belief in any god so if i was in your dream/vision i would be standing there without a heart?