Posts by Journeyman

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

To go along with Nic’s point, I think at this point, this thread is best used to track monthly Patreon declines and provide updates such as new court filings and stupid shit he posts.

I think that's pretty much how it's become, and that's fine. The numbers show LE is an irrelevance now, and he appears to have lost any desire or will to be bothered to keep stoking the fires either, thankfully.

Currently his numbers are up slightly at 318, but way below his previously lows around the 330 mark. At this rate he could definitely slip below 300 by the end of the year. How sad! 🤣 He's the living embodiment of the saying "you reap what you sow", which I remember reading in some book or other once...

On a different note, I only returned to this thread today to catch up with recent updates so missed a few previous comments. I really can't allow this ridiculous reply to an earlier comment to go unchallenged:

Stop trying to justify your far left Nazi rhetoric from your terrible authoritarian state.

While there can often be disagreement between the USA and UK (and other democratic nations) about extradition (see Julian Assange, Anne Sacoolas, etc), there is still no comparison between what Lloyd Evans tried to pull off and what the Metropolitan Police Commissioner proposed.

I presume you're just being deliberately provocative, because if you really believe that the UK is a "far left Nazi" "authoritarian state", you are more seriously deluded than I realised. Get that chip (or "french fry") off your shoulder and educate yourself better about other English-speaking nations - like the one that originated the language and culture in the first place, perhaps! 🤣

The accusation of being "Nazi" is just laughable and I'll put it down to you stumbling into the classic 'Godwin's law' fallacy trap. But if "far left" means not letting your youths be slaughtered in their hundreds every year in gun suicides and shootings, for example, then I'm happy to live in a country that doesn't "allow" that "freedom", thanks!

75

Would you be able to survive a three day Assembly?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the last assembly i attended was over 10 years ago.

the monotone speakers, boring talks, uncomfortable seats, long prayers and nodding off after the lunch break did me in.

i survived the morning sessions, but the afternoon sessions were brutal.

Journeyman

I used to fare better with the three-day conventions (they haven't used the word "assembly" for three-day events for a long time) than I do now.

The downsides of the old conventions were they were often in draughty sports stadiums, open to the elements, and, for non-US attendees, every talk or drama was all American accents (apologies to US readers, but the fact is most English-speaking JWs outside the USA got sick of hearing the same accents and phrases in everything, as if there were no capable speakers from the UK, Canada, Ireland, Australia or New Zealand), and with those weird cadences and exaggerated enunciation of Bethel speakers.

But the upsides were that they seemed more like actual meet-ups of friends back then, and the talks themselves seemed more engaging and meaningful then, with more mature speakers who (usually) seemed to have life experience. Today, it all feels a lot more flat, and it's all bite-size symposium items interspersed with frequent (largely pointless) video clips, and many of the speakers are very young "corporate" types. It all seems very "lite" - like a cross between an evangelical meeting, designed just to stir emotions, and some kind of children's Sunday school, with simplistic talks and videos.

These days though, because most conventions are held in event centres, it's easier to dodge out of them and find distractions, either by volunteering for assignments, or just by leaving the seating area and spending time elsewhere like the food hall or outside seating. And many have a local broadcast of the programme, so you can tune in and listen from the car park or outside area (if you want to) while doing other things, and just tune in and out as you feel like it.

The short answer for me is, I don't think I could cope with three days of just sitting listening (or watching) anymore, as I usually use the time to be active working on assignments or doing something else while the talks are going on. That provides a distraction from the parts of the programme I really don't want to listen to, and if I'm working I can feel I'm actually being useful rather than sitting passively having that simplified stuff wash over me.

4

Just Curious: Do JWs Count Their Time Spent in Chat Forums "Witnessing?"

by LauraLynn in

hi, all--i was just wondering, since there is emphasis on counting your witnessing hours in the jws, if they indeed count their time here and in other chat forums?

i happened to check the jws own chat forum, and it is closed to non-members.

i thought that it was interesting that they are free to come here, but we are not free to go there to discuss the bible.

Journeyman

Hi LauraLynn,

Your information is a bit out of date. Since last year, there is no requirement for JWs to report hours (unless they are pioneers), so the issue no longer arises for most.

Besides, the org has always strongly counselled against JWs debating online, as nicolaou said. In fact, it took them some years to get beyond the "Internet is bad" attitude and even make their own website!

JWTalk has been around for a while and to my knowledge (although I've never signed up for it) it's mostly JWs who do still consider themselves 'loyal', although the very fact they frequent that site means they're not strictly following the org's direction.

43

any JW construction going on other than Warwick?

by Magnum in

is anybody aware of any kingdom hall builds going on or any kind of ldc activity?

i've been wanting to ask this, and committeechairman's question at the end of this thread, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/289353/ldc-semininar?page=4&size=20, moved me to go ahead and ask.. i've kind of wondered whether the org leaders got rid of rbcs and instituted the ldc arrangement because they wanted to be able to stop or slow down construction without it being obvious.

if the rbcs were still in existence, it would be obvious that there's nothing (or almost nothing) going on (if that really is the way it is) because rbc personnel would be idle when they were used to being busy.

Journeyman

They finished the new Bethel in Argentina earlier this year, but it seems (as from another thread) that the work on the one in Italy has stalled, or at least slowed significantly.

Ramapo still seems to be dragging on, but we don't hear much about it at the moment. Last video I found on the JW site was named "2023 update on..." but now that it's August 2024 we're over halfway into another year without there being anything new it seems.

Not a dicky-bird about any notable expansion in local Kingdom Hall builds anywhere either, or even mass renovations. I know of one new build, and a couple of minor repair works here in London, but not a lot.

Everything's much more low-key compared to a few years ago. Even accepting COVID would have set back a lot of plans, the initial buzz when congregations first came back together after the pandemic has fizzled out. I don't sense any huge excitement for "theocratic" projects, so I wouldn't be surprised if the GB are struggling to get the donations and volunteer labour they need to keep the momentum up on their desired construction plans.

The bubble seems to have finally burst - or at least it's deflating - on building up the property portfolio and turning it over for profit.

We also don't know what the state of projected finances is either - it could be that the JW bean counters are bracing for massive outlays on lost court cases in the USA and Europe in the near future and so are pulling the purse strings tighter?

14

Cedar Point Ohio 🙄🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

by xaminewt in

i started doubting the organization when i was 15. i spent the next 12 years doing in-depth research involving numerous emails with bible scholars and scientists.

i finally left the organisation 3 years ago.

technically i was never actually a jw as i was never baptised, so i’m not being shunned.

Journeyman

It's interesting that even the present-day GB realised what a mess they had on their hands with the legacy of all these overly-detailed and proscriptive "prophetic" statements about specific events in the history of the Bible Students' and early JWs.

That's why, a few years ago, they had a clear out by simply declaring that "types" and "anti-types" were to be discarded unless the Bible explicitly makes such comparisons.

The problem for the org is, at a stroke, they undermined the vast majority of all their detailed "justifications" for being Jehovah's sole anointed channel in modern times, as foretold from of old in Scripture. So no more are the anointed or elements of the organisation's history the "Greater or lesser" this or the "Typical or anti-typical" that.

I don't think even now most JWs realise the huge ramifications of the GB tearing up all of that "spiritual heritage" in one fell swoop. (JWs of the older generations, in mean - anyone who's been in the org less than about 15-20 years would have no idea anyway about all these old "prophetic" interpretations). All those articles, all those study publications - the two Isaiah Prophecy books, the Rev Climax book, the Jeremiah and Daniel books, etc - all consigned to a weird limbo where they exist buried in the JW Library as text only (and of course hard copies mouldering on the shelves of older Witnesses), but are never officially referred to in meetings or publications now.

For many older ones, it's probably why so many have now left or drifted and either become inactive or are just coasting along. What's the point, when everything you have invested your hopes and energies into for decades has now been erased at a stroke, by the very people who are supposed to be your "spiritual shepherds", feeding you "life-saving food at the proper time"?

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Sir Mark Rowley is taking a page out of the Lloyd Evans playbook

Not really. There is an extradition treaty between the US and UK and a well-established history of exchanging suspects for trial.

True, some cases are more controversial, and the US does have quite a poor record of complying with international agreements and laws when it comes to allowing their own citizens to face justice abroad for their crimes (in stark contrast to their habit of invading other countries or putting serious pressure on other governments to extradite people they want to see in US-run courts), but still, the situation is hardly comparable to the relationship between the Croatian judicial system and the UK or USA.

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

Journeyman

The music is more and more "simplified" by the WTS and not for the good. [...] Songs were better in the beginning[...]. I expect a deeper descent into mediocrity.

I completely agree. The decline in quality is noticeable in the songs for meetings, and the additional "original" songs are almost entirely banal, corny and/or childish. Some are quite blatantly "Disneyfied", with awful animations and twee lyrics to accompany them.

Along with the JW ~~Televangelism~~ Broadcasting channel, it's a clear example of how the org has completely become what it once railed against. In the past, "Christian pop/rock" of the past was mocked (often quite rightly), but now the concept has been adopted wholesale. Witnesses who died before 2014 would be turning in their graves!

It's interesting how often the org bangs on about their "rich spiritual heritage", yet songs not currently on the "approved" playlist are never replayed, and anyone at a "gathering" bringing out an old CD or ripped media of Kingdom Melodies from before the new grey songbook was released would probably be looked at as if they were an apostate!

26

Worldwide Benefits ( USELESSNESS ) of Cart Witnessing

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

library.

meeting workbooks.

life and ministry meeting workbook | november 2018. .

Journeyman

Haven't seen any carts near me in the usual places for ages now - have they slacked off because they don't have to report ministry the same way now I wonder??

Anecdotally, from my area of the UK that does seem to be the case. There seem to be far fewer publishers taking out the carts on a regular basis, even now. In the past, although the numbers would drop in the winter, in summer it would increase again and we would have many - up to a few dozen - doing the work at various places outside parks and shopping centres each week. This summer though, numbers have barely risen from their winter low. Just the same hardcore 10-12 people.

It was to my understanding that in order to get to stand by the apathy carts,,,,that your ''hours" had to be exemplary.

Yes, I do wonder how elders are supposed to determine who is "exemplary" by JW standards now - unless they are "pioneers", who still have to report hours. And even then, if the pioneers I know of are anything to go by, most of them are struggling to meet their hours due to overwork, depression, loneliness and various health issues. Or conversely, they are the long-time pioneers who seem to treat it as a "career" and jet off on holidays and disappear frequently to visit other friends and congregations, while still seeming to complete their pioneering each year.

Of course, elders could look at how well someone is showing all the "fruitage of the spirit" rather than just quantitative measures like how many meetings they are at, how many talks and comments they give and so on, but the org has always been driven by numbers over actual qualities.

There's supposed to be some big campaign coming in October in London to push the ministry, with Witnesses from outside the UK coming to the capital to assist in a mass preaching campaign. It will include both house-to-house and "public witnessing" (more carts).

We'll see by November if it turns into something noticeable or just another here-today-gone-tomorrow "nothing burger". It's certainly an odd time to choose. October in the UK is not the best time with darker evenings closing in, and it's likely to be colder with more unpredictable weather. Some time between the Memorial and the start of the so-called "convention season", maybe in April, May on June, would probably have been better. I'm not sure if the decision on the date was made by the UK Branch, but if feels more like another example of an out-of-touch GB in the USA making decisions for other countries.

9

Have 3 buildings disappeared from the new Italian Bethel under construction since 2019? What happened to them?

by LaFrancia in

if anyone knows more, a comment is welcome.

if you visit the official jw website and search for bologna it will take you to some articles and 1 video.

the site shows a building completed in 2020 with 41 apartments, there is a photo with alleged bethelites looking out from the balconies and waving.

Journeyman

Ok, I checked the site wannaexit linked to, and there is this updated info (Google-translated from Italian as I sadly do not read the language):

The building, previously owned by the Revenue Agency, was purchased by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in December 2017.

The first activities carried out were the preparation and safety of the construction site, as well as the strip-out of the building itself.

From the structural examination of the construction, dating back to the mid-1990s, it was immediately clear that it did not comply with the most recent national and Community anti-seismic regulations.

To align the building with community and national seismic regulations as well as modern best practices, we used a company specialized in anti-seismic adaptation. (I suppose that explains why an outside secular company was required - sounds like the Org got conned by the seller into buying a non-compliant building!)

The completion of the works is expected by the end of 2025. (Yet ANOTHER year added on?!)

The new construction will host offices, multipurpose rooms, a canteen with kitchen and various departments to support the work of the hundreds of volunteers expected from all over the world.

The rest of the site has this information:

The ownership of the former Sabiem area was acquired by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses on 30 June 2021. The municipal council then approved the project on 19 July 2021.
The then deputy mayor Valentina Orioli stated: “What we have approved is a perfect urban regeneration operation that will allow the redevelopment of an abandoned industrial area located in an inhabited area, making many public facilities available to the community.
This brings to a close a complex story that originates from the bankruptcy of Sabiem. With the acquisition of the property by the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses it was finally possible to compensate the workers who had lost their jobs. I want to acknowledge the new ownership for having worked seriously and with the aim of closing this important agreement."
The project involves the construction of three 10-story buildings that will serve as homes for hundreds of Jehovah's Witness volunteers. Together with the residences, a public park will also be created which will have an area of approximately 16,000 thousand square metres.
In this area, two public green areas will be created, a cycle path and two car parks. A place of worship will also be built next to the Municipal Multipurpose Hall.
The project involves the construction of a Municipal Multipurpose Hall of approximately 250 square metres.
The construction will be fully available to the Borgo Panigale-Reno district. It will be rebuilt according to the original model and great attention will be given to the issue of environmental sustainability.
Vincenzo Naldi, president of the Borgo Panigale-Reno district at the time the agreement was drafted, explained: “I am very satisfied with this agreement which presents important contents for the neighbourhood. In particular, I like to say that the building for public use will be dedicated to activities for teenagers in a context in which we are creating a system for our young people together with the structure already open in via Martinelli in collaboration with the Golinelli Foundation and with the future structure which will be made possible by the agreement for the relocation of Sintexcal. I also underline an extra provision of parking and the valorisation, through the creation of a cycle path, of the lime trees that characterize part of this area".

Let's see if the final development really does have all these buildings in the plan, or if any get cut back.

9

Have 3 buildings disappeared from the new Italian Bethel under construction since 2019? What happened to them?

by LaFrancia in

if anyone knows more, a comment is welcome.

if you visit the official jw website and search for bologna it will take you to some articles and 1 video.

the site shows a building completed in 2020 with 41 apartments, there is a photo with alleged bethelites looking out from the balconies and waving.

Journeyman

I wonder if the Italy branch is also going to end up getting the kind of downsizing that the Britain branch got?

Originally, there was talk of a whole printery and much more accommodation at the Chelmsford complex when it was first announced and the early architects' plans released. But by the time it was completed it had been much scaled down.

From what I can see, the most recent update regarding the Italy branch was in the video LaFrancia mentioned, made in 2022 (from 2:30 to 4:00) - URL broken up to prevent hotlinking:

JW dot org /en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwb-100_11_VIDEO

There are three intriguing things I learned from it:
1) That originally the branch was intending to use volunteer Witnesses in the construction (as is usually done), but for some unstated reason they went with secular construction companies instead.
2) Although COVID inevitably interrupted the work, it is said that it only stopped construction completely for one month. So why has the project taken so long?
2) That the original finish date was to be the end of 2023 (in previous updates of 2019 and 2020), but now the latest finish date is said to be the end of 2024.

So why did they go with the additional costs of a secular construction company?
And why has the project taken so long, with at least a year being added to the completion date?

wannaexit is probably right about money running out, especially as they went to outside construction companies rather than use their pool of free labour. But knowing the lack of transparency from the Org, Italian Witnesses will probably not get satisfactory answers to any questions they might have.