Posts by Journeyman

6

Crisis With Singles and Single Parents Looming?

by Pathofthorns in

jw
friends

likely we've all noticed that on the two major jw discussion forums the most active forums are the "singles or dating" forums.. it would appear that there is an increasingly large number of single parents appearing in the congregations these days for whatever reason.. i admire these ones for the effort they put forth to bring their children up taking on the role of both parents.

from many of their comments in the "singles " forums, it appears many find being a single parent an extreme liability in "the truth" as far as finding a mate goes.

i wonder if jw culture has something to do with how these ones are viewed as prospective marriage mates vs. the mentality in the "world".. as far the single people go, there appears to be almost a certain desperation to get married, further scaring off potential mates.

Journeyman

I hope Simon won't mind, but out of curiosity I got to digging back into the oldest available posts to see
1) what topics might be relevant and worth revisiting after many years, and
2) how the members of 'old' discussed them.

This is an interesting one which I think is worth commenting on with fresh thoughts after a 23 year gap.
How different do you feel things are in the org for singles and single parents now compared to the late 1990s and early 2000s when this was originally mentioned?

Of course this comment by the OP is still true:

The Society's advice for pioneers to marry pioneers, or for sisters to look for brothers with "titles" appears to throw more snags into the equation.

Based on my own experience in a UK inner city congregation, there were indeed a quite a few single parents in the congregations some years ago. They seemed to fall into three groups:
1) single parents who were bible studies or recent converts, and so had not been witnesses at the time they had their child(ren);
2) single parents who were baptised witnesses and had got married and had children but then divorced, been widowed or abandoned by their partner;
3) single sisters who had either left the org for a while and got pregnant while "in the world" or had got involved with someone while in, had a bit of the old "fornication", been reproved and now had a kid to raise.

But it seems to me that in the last 5-10 years these numbers have fallen. The studies and/or recent converts have mostly drifted away. The single sisters with one or more children have either moved out of the circuit due to cost of living in the city (and/or possibly also left the JWs altogether) or they are now alone as their children have grown up and mostly, once becoming teenagers themselves, have not stayed in the congregation.

In a couple of cases the children have stayed as witnesses, but have moved away to marry and/or join other congregations, often foreign language or abroad. It seems children of single parents in those situations don't want to hang around in their 'old' congregation, probably because they were watched so closely by everyone while growing up and want to be more free now as adults.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? It seems people are either desperate to get married, or desperate to get out of their marriage.

I don't feel there are as many "desperate to get married" as there used to be, but that could be because the congregation I'm in is ageing and many of the singles have been that way for several years and I suppose are kind of settled like that or resigned to "singleness" now. I also don't sense the degree of interest in socialising with other JWs that there was before COVID struck, which used to provide internal opportunities for finding a mate.

Finally, I think the below comment from Roamingfeline is sadly still very true, and probably a major reason why I see fewer single parents in the congregations these days.

Single parents in the "Truth" are made to be very lonely, as they are never invited to the couples' homes since they don't fit in, and they are not allowed to be with "worldly" friends without being shunned. So it is an extremely lonely position to be in. A huge struggle and you never fit into any niche.

For those of you still attending meetings or around active JWs, what are your thoughts and observations where you are?

8

Meaning of Elder from the horses mouth as contrasted with Clergy

by Longlivetherenegades in

jw
friends

meaning of as captured in one of their publications.... .

elder: a spiritually mature male witness appointed to teach and to provide pastoral care for the well-being of congregation members.

an elder must meet the scriptural qualifications as outlined at 1 timothy 3:1-7; titus 1:5-9; james 3:17, 18; and 1 peter 5:2.. elders are not paid ministers and are not employees of their respective congregation or any corporation associated with jehovah’s witnesses.

Journeyman

Anony Mous: Pretty much every court across the world has disagreed with that notion of an elder not being part of the organization. It's the organization that appoints them.

Yes, the org can't get away with this slippery double-standard for much longer. There are too many examples in their own direction (letters to BoEs, Shepherd The Flock book, theocratic schools, etc) that show that of course the elders are equivalent to the clergy in other churches.

They may not receive a salary (stipend), wear flashy robes or have fancy titles, but for all practical purposes they fulfil the role of a clergy class. Their relative 'authority' within the organisation compared to the rank and file makes the difference, and is undeniable.

8

Meaning of Elder from the horses mouth as contrasted with Clergy

by Longlivetherenegades in

jw
friends

meaning of as captured in one of their publications.... .

elder: a spiritually mature male witness appointed to teach and to provide pastoral care for the well-being of congregation members.

an elder must meet the scriptural qualifications as outlined at 1 timothy 3:1-7; titus 1:5-9; james 3:17, 18; and 1 peter 5:2.. elders are not paid ministers and are not employees of their respective congregation or any corporation associated with jehovah’s witnesses.

Journeyman

ExBethelite: what I can tell you is that there is a rapidly declining number of brothers who want to reach out as it’s called.

Yes, though I'm not an elder, I've seen this too. There are several congregations I know of where there are a number of brothers who are old enough and experienced enough but they are not being 'promoted'. With some it is due to health, but with others they have probably refused to take on more, while a few I know have 'issues' that prevent them from being considered. Some of them might be playing their health or other issues up to prevent being asked to do more, and I wouldn't blame them.

I was never interested in being an elder. Back when I was more naive about what went on in the org, it was because I didn't think I had what it takes to handle judicial cases and didn't want to have that kind of (spiritual) "life or death" pressure on me. And now I know even more about what goes on, I certainly wouldn't want to be an elder, knowing the burden the org puts on you, and also the internal politics and strife within bodies of elders.

Indeed, if I were in the position to be first offered MS now, I would probably decline that too. Back when I was made MS it seemed a more worthwhile role. We had a 'real' theocratic school and a service meeting with parts that were worth preparing and getting on the platform for. Ministry was still focused on developing some sort of art of teaching and seemed more substantial. I actually used to enjoy giving the old "number 4" talks, bible highlights and Q&A service meeting items from the OKM, taking midweek field service when few elders were available, supporting them with groups at weekends and going with them on a few shepherding calls.

Now the role of a MS on the platform is often just to top and tail a video. Even a lot of the elders' items are the same, such as playing the silhouette ministry videos or introducing the GB updates. And ministry is often a much smaller group who split up straight after the prayer, with some going to do a few doors by themselves and others going to a cafe to write letters (allegedly) or staying online.

but there is such a shortage now sometimes sister are doing microphones

I know of several congregations that since the return from the pandemic, have started using sisters on the audio-visual desk during the meeting, due to not having enough brothers to do all the talks as well as handle the platform, mics and sound. I can't ever remember seeing that before.

there is not enough brothers to do all the jobs and they are not getting done well

I've also noticed this too. Several in the congregation are noticing that elders are not as visible on shepherding visits or out on service with the rest of the congregation as they used to be before the pandemic, and will comment (privately) about it. A number of elders themselves that I've spoken to sound tired and overwhelmed and are aware things are not as smooth as they were, and that's just what they're prepared to say in my company. I can imagine their meetings with each other and the CO are probably even more depressing!

8

In the latest JW_ORG cartoon video, young Caleb learns from his father that he does not have to be baptized to be a Jehovah's Witness

by jwleaks in

in the latest jw_org cartoon caleb learns from his father that he can be a jehovah's witness without being baptized by becoming an 'unbaptized publisher'.. the video also refers to a potential meeting with the elders to discuss caleb becoming an 'unbaptized publisher'.. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/children/become-jehovahs-friend/activities/become-an-unbaptized-publisher/.

.

Journeyman

At about 0:36, the father says: "It's like getting a licence to drive a car. You have to be approved."

Even though there are no scriptures I can think of that show a requirement for someone to pass a formal 'interview' or test before they can start preaching. In the same way as there is no Biblical requirement to turn in a "service report" each month.

Two major ways in which man-made rules have been added to what was written for the sake of administrative and corporate convenience, turning what should be a spontaneous and enthusiastic sharing of one's beliefs motivated by personal desire, into a rigid, structured "assignment" at the behest of an organisation. Quite Pharisaical, in fact.

19

Normal people don't give a darn if you're a witness

by XBEHERE in

jw
friends

this was posted on exjw reddit, check it out if some of you never have.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13q6k5l/normal_people_dont_give_a_darn_if_youre_a_witness/ .

i find this to be the case, people in general are so not interested in religion that they really could care less about jws.

Journeyman

Of course it depends which country (or part of that country) you live in, but I've never had a major problem with "persecution", hostile reactions or even particularly strong responses to being a JW in day-to-day life (apart from when actually "on the ministry" of course).

Living in a big multicultural city in a largely free and secular country and working in a diverse sector where people of many different religious beliefs (and none) interact, I would agree that generally no-one here really cares if you happen to be a JW, nor has much knowledge about them. (Nor is bothered to find out.)

But then I don't go out of my way to push it into others' faces. I've never been one for all this slipping in "ministry introductions" into breaktime conversations, or strategically placing Watchtower or Awake mags on my workspace to try and manufacture opportunities to "give a witness". If I was asked directly about something that touched on my beliefs, or asked to do something I specifically wasn't comfortable doing I'd reply simply and factually, but that's about it.

I found that mostly, people would reply with a fairly neutral "oh ok". Occasionally they might respond with something like "why do you believe that?" or "I don't think I agree with that/with JWs", but mostly they were fairly accepting in the past. I suspect this may change as the public spotlight falls more on the controversial teachings that come from the GB, especially some of their more outlandish statements in talks and broadcasts.

Of course, in most public sector workplaces in the UK (health, education, local government, etc), overtly discussing religious topics is a taboo anyway and could even lead to disciplinary action if it were thought you were "preaching" or criticising others' beliefs, hence most people shy away from the subject. Same in most social situations. The old saying used to be "don't discuss politics or religion in public", and many still keep to that, especially if they don't know the people around them extremely well.

The British attitude in the workplace is still mostly "we're here to do a job" and "your belief is your business, mine is mine", so they will be respectfully neutral to you and rarely oppose directly. I'm fine with that, and have no desire to create distance or difference just for the sake of it, despite what is sometimes stirred up by the GB or more over-enthusiastic elders in their talks.

17

What would Watchtower Corporation(tm) do?

by punkofnice in

what would watchtower corporation(tm) do in compromise of their 'north korean style rules' if by publicly removing them, they could get more money and power?.

if each governing body(tm) member (pee be upon them), were offered a few million quid/bucks each to rescind the barbaric 'no whole blood' rule?.

i know what i think these fake religionists would do.

Journeyman

We probably could do with a nice juicy bust-up right now to liven things up. The AMIII thing turned into a disappointment as it has fizzled out under a cloud of secrecy (possibly secured by a payoff, NDA or something similar).

But if there are rifts in this GB over what direction to take the org, then we might see some interesting fall-out in the next few years as the pressure comes on from court cases and negative media attention (and possibly internal pressure too from BoEs, COs, etc).

Obviously they would try to keep it quiet, but I reckon it would become more apparent these days because the org and its teachings have much more public scrutiny, their material is openly available online and the ExJW community is much more active and ready to highlight any inconsistencies or flip-flops.

This supposed pulling of the two shunning videos from the 2023 convention (if true) might already be an indication of divided opinion internally. It used to be said there were often clashes between the teaching committee and the writing committee on how to address some subjects in meetings and magazines. We might be about to see the same again over these controversial topics.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

Except Ray shags everyone else's wife, Lloyd shags everyone but his wife!

Bwahahaa! Good one.

I do feel sorry for Dijana. Even though she is somewhat complicit in him being able to continue acting as he is. I don't know how much of that is her having been manipulated, and how much is self-preservation/getting what she can out of the situation?

In a sense, it could be a form of prostitution itself: you tolerate the crap you get from your husband and even support him (on the surface at least), in return for the 'pay' - income and a form of material security (but at the cost of your own emotional and mental health).

17

What would Watchtower Corporation(tm) do?

by punkofnice in

what would watchtower corporation(tm) do in compromise of their 'north korean style rules' if by publicly removing them, they could get more money and power?.

if each governing body(tm) member (pee be upon them), were offered a few million quid/bucks each to rescind the barbaric 'no whole blood' rule?.

i know what i think these fake religionists would do.

Journeyman

I think the answer hinges on the question "What do they (individually and collectively) actually believe?"

I think many of the opponents of JWs (whether exJWs themselves or not) underestimate this factor, perhaps because they assume that because they no longer believe the theology (and possibly never did), then none of the leadership do either.

If a GB member genuinely believes he has a God-given role to "lead the flock", and he genuinely believes in the no blood teaching, then threats or bribes will not sway him, and in fact are more likely to make him dig his heels in. Likewise with other controversial things like shunning. Most of us can remember being like that ourselves when we were "in", if we were threatened or sweet-talked into being tempted to "compromise" on any of those beliefs.

Where it would become really interesting, and maybe has been (or is) already causing tension at the top, is the power balance. What % of the GB are completely behind these teachings and how many could be persuaded to relax them or even abandon them at some time in return for "concessions"? Who holds the balance of power regarding which teachings are non-negotiable and which could be "flexible"?

I really don't think offering money would make a difference, but something like dropping legal action and/or giving immunity from prosecution or (in the case of more intolerant countries like Russia) giving the JWs more religious freedom might be tempting to some in the GB.

Possibly for some, giving them more influence in "the world" might also be tempting, like with UN lobby groups and national legal processes (forming religious freedom laws, etc), but again that would depend on how much they believe the "no part of the world" teaching and the concept that political organisations are controlled by the Devil, and their belief they're going to heaven to rule.

The evidence so far seems to be that the GB are "circling the wagons" and going into defensive mode over their most controversial core teachings, which suggests they really do believe in them and also really do believe that they are heading for the Armageddon showdown with "the world", or at the very least that changing their teachings now would somehow be worse than keeping them. It makes it less likely they will give way on anything unless one or more of them who hold some authority break rank.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

green screen ! DUH!

Better be careful mentioning "green screen" or a certain person will be reporting there's a thread of 960+ pages on how he should use a green screen...

Oh my goodness, no. What a horrible vision. I have no problem with speakers with beards as some in the congregations do, but the day we see anyone giving a talk while having a tacky hairstyle and neckbeard like that, we will know that the JW standards of "dress and grooming" have really slipped!

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

Following up on that, here's what his recent "My Greatest Wish And Worst Fears" video was about.

Our 'friend' discussed his wishes and fears around the future of the JW org only, nothing about his own channel or life.

However, he did make a couple of comments that seem amusingly (or annoyingly) lacking in self-awareness. I've italicised his quotes and put my own observations in bold.

1) Over the years he has changed his view: Used to think it would be possible to see the JW org face a catastrophe, either from falling numbers or going bankrupt. Now he believes the JWs "can weather almost any storm".

2) His greatest wish now, with those reduced expectations, is for an FBI raid on Paterson and the seizure of the abuse database. Also feels it needs to happen at Bethels around the world, but if it happens in the US it could start to "snowball" from there.

His worst fear, apart from the current situation continuing indefinitely? He said: "I guess I'm living in my worst fear every day" - no, not that his own lies, manipulation of other people and cruelty to his wife have been exposed and his status and income have suffered but, that the organisation continues to facilitate abuse of children and "break apart families". Oh, the irony! At least they've never advocated so-called 'ethical' non-monogamy, aka sleeping with prostitutes if you feel you can't control your penis and your wife isn't "good enough" in bed.

He added: "Every day is a living nightmare with this organisation" (I don't think he meant working with Tibor and Dijana...)

3) How does he think it could be even worse? That the org becomes more self-aware, because at the moment they make it so easy to be criticised. (Ahem! More irony there.)

Removal of Tony Morris maybe means they are taking steps to make the organisation seem more credible to outsiders.

He said he "senses" there is a power shift going on, and slowly the leadership may be changing, with the likes of Sanderson having more influence and the arrival of new appointments Fleegle and Winder.

He theorised: What if the org were to hire a really good PR firm who would encourage them to shed the delusion thinking that has been guiding their decision making so far, and try harder to recruit thinking adults with rudimentary critical thinking skills?

One suggestion he speculated a PR firm might make was to give Splane "an indefinite time-out from appearing on camera until he can learn to stop being so condescending and patronising". He also added that Mark Sanderson is a "cold, calculated, manipulative individual". Pots and kettles, people in glass houses, etc?

While he perhaps makes some valid points, this video is a prime example of why he has zero credibility as a standard-bearer for reform. Every time he criticises others he exposes the hypocrisy of his own behaviour, none of which he has ever expressed real regret about.