Journeyman

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  2959

  It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

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  Journeyman

  The last update on his Patreon was:
  

  Well, it's a week into September already now, so sorry, Lloyd, time has caught up with you and you've got to try and make some effort again!

  Or will you go for another stalling message...? 🤣
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  72

  The Watchtower's Depiction of 'paradise'..

  by Ron.W. in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps we could post the pictures the wt have presented in their literature that depict their version of paradise here for comment/discussion:.

  from: spirits of the dead​—can they help you or harm you?

  do they really exist?.

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  Journeyman

  They would look at a drawing in one of the books and say: “As the picture shows…”. JWs acted as if they had cameras and camcorders in the First century!

  The fact that we both have the same impression of this shows this feeling is pervasive in the religion.

  LongHairGal - indeed, and thanks for your confirmation on my thoughts. BTW, I didn't vote you down either, so not guilty there!

  Do they still have images like the ones posted? now that they are basically televangelist what is the modern day equivalent?

  Oh, they certainly do. Below is a pic from a recent magazine and online article.

  I suppose the real "modern day equivalent" now though is video footage of their idea of Paradise - hence the even more 'detailed' images which raise even more questions. In a recent convention they had footage of a girl running through a field which I think was traced to a piece of stock online film the Org had obviously just bought. Too lazy to even stage their own?

  
  
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  Jw Broadcasting Sept 24 : Making up stories about Miriam

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/mvhvtxh3fn0?si=yw_pszgyh8xvmoy8.

  so the following video is part of the latest jw broadcasting for september 2024 the script for this video is taken from the publication "immitate their faith" which is like "my book of bible stories" but for adults but is full of inaccuracies and outright falsehoods and here we deal with an outright fabrication about miriam, the sister of moses:.

  under the subtitle "miriam the proud" we read: privileges and prominence bring blessings as well as dangers.

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  Journeyman

  The OP mentions that the recent publication "Imitate Their Faith" is:

  'like "My book of Bible Stories" but for adults but is full of inaccuracies and outright falsehoods'.

  That was a major irritation I had with that book too. Congregations studied it together for a few months a couple of years ago, and although it seems a good idea to have a book that tells the stories of specific Bible characters - a collection of biographies, if you like - I also found there there were too many assumptions and suppositions made in the book that are completely unsupported by the scriptures. It follows a recent pattern of them simply making up elements within the Bible accounts (such as the recent convention video where they invented a sister for Jonah, just to have scenes of dialogue).

  For example, in the chapter about Elijah, describing the account where he is waiting for a coming storm that God has promised and he has his attendant watching for a sign of its arrival, the Bible account at 1 Kings 18:42-44 says:

  Then he [Elijah] said to his attendant: “Go up, please, and look toward the sea.” So he went up and looked and said: “There is nothing at all.” Seven times Elijah said, “Go back.” The seventh time his attendant said: “Look! There is a small cloud like a man's hand ascending out of the sea.” He now said: “Go, say to Ahab, ‘Hitch up the chariot! Go down so that the downpour may not detain you!’”

  However, the section about this in the "Imitate Their Faith"book says this (bold mine for emphasis):

  "Because Elijah had confidence in Jehovah’s promise, he eagerly sought evidence that Jehovah was about to act. He sent his attendant up to a high vantage point to scan the horizon for any signs of impending rain. Upon his return, the attendant delivered this unenthusiastic report: “There is nothing at all.” The horizon was clear, and the sky, evidently cloudless. Now, did you notice something unusual? Remember, Elijah had just told King Ahab: “There is the sound of the turmoil of a downpour.” How could the prophet say such a thing when there were no rain clouds to be seen?

  [...]

  Next, notice how watchful Elijah was. He sent his attendant back, not once or twice, but seven times! We might imagine the attendant tiring of such a repetitive task, but Elijah remained eager for a sign and did not give up. Finally, after his seventh trip, the attendant reported: “Look! There is a small cloud like a man’s palm ascending out of the sea.” Can you picture that attendant holding his arm outstretched and using his palm to gauge the size of one little cloud coming up over the horizon of the Great Sea? The attendant may have been unimpressed. To Elijah, though, that cloud was significant. He now gave his attendant urgent directions: “Go up, say to Ahab, ‘Hitch up! And go down that the downpour may not detain you!’”​

  If you read the Bible verses, there is absolutely nothing to suggest the attendant is "unenthusiastic" or "unimpressed". He is obedient to what is asked by his master, he keeps doing what he is told without any sign of resistance or complaint, and he gives accurate observations. The attendant obviously also obeyed in going and notifying Ahab when asked, as the next verses state Ahab acted on the news. Yet the Org seems determined to paint him as somehow reluctant or negative. I've no idea why, and it irritated me.

  The only thing I could think of is that they were trying to emphasise Elijah's watchfulness by downplaying or ignoring the role his attendant played, making it seem that only Elijah was keen and observant. But they could've just as easily made the attendant an example of 'obedience' (which they're usually so keen to do), who kept doing what his master asked even though being sent back seven times, and it would have fitted the Bible account more accurately.

  There were other examples of assumptions like this at various points in the book which ruined the whole supposed biographical approach for me, and I was glad to see the back of that book when the study was finished.

  Interestingly, in common with many recently published books, after it was released with some fanfare and had been studied in the congregations, it has barely been referred to since! 🤣

  
  
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  15

  U turn in vac mandate

  by ElderBerry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so now they don’t want defib machines in khalls because it shines a light on the increasing blood clots from the shots that they said were safe.

  https://youtu.be/yvvyiuqv3nm.

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  Journeyman

  There were not defib machines everywhere before the rollout of the vaccines

  I dunno where you're living, but that's definitely not true here in the UK. For more than a decade places have been increasing access to them. For example, there are many old traditional British telephone boxes like these:

  
  

  Now payphones are pretty much redundant, one of the common uses for them now is to house a defibrillator for emergency public use:

  

  Here's an article from 2016 - increased use of defibrillators has nothing to do with COVID or vaccines: https://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2016/feb/19/emergency-call-village-phone-boxes-could-save-lives-defrillators

  It's much more likely that the increase in the need for defibrillators to help with cardiac arrests is due to health problems caused by the obesity epidemic that's been growing in many countries since the 1990s - especially the USA, UK and Australia for example: lack of exercise and unhealthy diets of people who consume stuff like 2 litres of Coke and fried takeaways every day!
  
  
  

  As for WT, as NotFormer and joey jojo say, this move is about the usual aversion to any kind of potential liability that the Org is showing in recent years - they've taken similar steps about everything, from cancelling congregation-sponsored events and parties, to telling the JWs they're on their own if they choose to do cart witnessing.

  Interestingly, in this case they even admit that's why in the elders' letter! Talk about bare-faced. Given the stats about how early intervention can increase the chances of saving life, they're basically admitting they'd rather a member of the congregation has a greater chance of dying, than that the Org faces a liability suit. As usual, the Org is not thinking with the heart, but the wallet.

  Ironically, putting that in writing is more likely to make them subject to a lawsuit in future.

  Also - we really do need to get over the anti-vax hysteria now. It's getting very old.
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  72

  The Watchtower's Depiction of 'paradise'..

  by Ron.W. in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps we could post the pictures the wt have presented in their literature that depict their version of paradise here for comment/discussion:.

  from: spirits of the dead​—can they help you or harm you?

  do they really exist?.

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  Journeyman

  Much of the imagery is just to present an idea.

  Yes, but that's become the problem.

  Back in the day, with just some limited monochrome pictures in the literature and the occasional colour painting or posed costume picture for a calendar or book endpaper or whatever, I think JWs generally understood that.

  The problem is, now that the current "JW Lite" has to depict everything in full colour illustrations or even expensively shot video with sweeping strings and corny but heart-tugging lyrics - and constantly refer to those pictures and videos in meeting items too - the common perception of many JWs is that all that the Org depicts is "real". In recent years I've even heard some of the R&F at meetings make comments (accidentally? or maybe not) about depicted Bible accounts like: "As we see in the photograph..."

  It makes me feel like going up to them afterwards and saying "You do realise these are just artists' (or video directors') impressions of events? Not actual scenes sent forward from antiquity or back from a Paradise future?!"

  So many speakers now will drone on at length about "what we see in the picture/video" or invite the audience to comment in detail about it. It completely distorts peoples' thinking about these deliberately staged scenes, treating them as if they were 'gospel' (if you'll pardon the pun!)
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  72

  Reddit thread about Bethel Reducing Headcount

  by LongHairGal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  apparently, the downsizing is still happening and from what i read those let go are over 50!.

  sad because these people expected to be lifers.

  now they have to make their way in the world at an advanced age with no education or desirable skill!..

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  Journeyman

  But is it all the Organization's fault? Not really, as no promises were made and for them, its just a business decision. And besides, those Bethelites have had their kudos ... enjoying the title and privileges of being one.

  I know what you mean, and up to a point I agree, but as some have pointed out, these ones bought into the idea that there were only a few years left of this "system" and they would never see old age in it - something constantly promoted from the top of the Org. So in that sense, the Org was making them promises.

  Also, from a spiritual viewpoint, the Org can't get away from culpability that easily. From "the one to whom much is given, much will be expected" and all that. If Bethel is supposed to be the 'top of the tree' in God's service on earth, then His eye would particularly be on how it treats its 'household'.

  The principle at 1 Timothy 5:8 - "if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith" - should be a warning to the Bethel head honchos and GB, but of course they've got their own priorities. Like counting the money, and drawing up more rules.

  I always thought Bethel was a fake, unscriptural environment, just as convents and monasteries are. Jesus never recommended his disciples shut themselves away from everyone else into closed communities, and the reasons why are clear when you see what happens in those kind of places: exploitation, bullying, sexual offences, egotism, jostling for rank and status, etc, etc.
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  2959

  It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

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  Journeyman

  Seriously? Why would you move to a country and not learn the language?

  It's called being lazy and not respecting others enough to learn their language, even when you are a migrant into their country.

  It shows the attitude he had deep down to his own (ex)wife and her parents too, that he would move to their home and live there for more than 10 years and not even bother to pick up basic conversational Croatian.

  Actually, the "special" conventions are a sort of big deal - in JW terms, at least. As pointed out, there's only usually a handful of them in the world each year compared to the dozens of others, and they are "international" where invited delegates from other countries come over and, as suggested, probably a GB member will be there. So if Zagreb gets to host one next year that will be significant for the Croatian JW community.

  However, by next year LE might not even cover it at all, since he can barely be bothered to keep up with JW life any more now. His "activism" doesn't make him the money it used to and he can't use it to get the status and control he once did, so he's no longer really motivated.
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  16

  Begging for accomodations

  by road to nowhere in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  local announcement has even pimis amused.

  wanting rooms for some event or refugees-not clear.

  private room with private bath.

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  Journeyman

  I vaguely remember over the years occasionally hearing such letters read from the platform. I usually tune that kind of begging out.

  I think here in the UK it was related to 1) accommodation for visiting JWs involved in the Britain Bethel relocation from London to Chelmsford a few years back, and 2) more recently, something to do with putting up visiting JWs for the preaching campaign in the London area which is coming up soon.

  Although I don't remember such letters in detail, I do recall thinking it's a bit crazy expecting JWs living in an expensive city like London where property is massively over-priced (and often too small for people to afford spare rooms and extra space) to just throw open their doors and welcome others to stay with them for what could be several weeks. Yeah, right. "Good luck" with that!
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  72

  The Watchtower's Depiction of 'paradise'..

  by Ron.W. in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps we could post the pictures the wt have presented in their literature that depict their version of paradise here for comment/discussion:.

  from: spirits of the dead​—can they help you or harm you?

  do they really exist?.

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  Journeyman

  Why is Jubusiah resurrected in ancient clothing?
  When is the ancient resurrected brother getting new and modern clothing?
  How did the African brother and a brother living around Noah's day or even before, come out of their tombs with pressed cloths, that have no wrinkles or tears? Why are they even wearing old clothes?

  Yes, now for me that's among the most ridiculous part. The difference in clothing makes no sense. The dead are never described as resurrected with their original clothes. And hair and beard styles are affected by the tools used to cut them, and the artistry of the one cutting them. It's highly unlikely that a barber in Paradise, if a survivor of Armageddon, would cut and style in the same way with the tools he uses as hair was cut in Bible times?
  

  I can sort of understand illustrating Paradise survivors with 'current' clothes at the time the literature is printed (eg: the 1970s/80s fashions which of course look so dated now). After all, if the end was coming "imminently", then that would sort of fit, and you can assume that depictions of Paradise may be during - not after - the 1000 years, when changes have been made but are still in progress.

  But the recent decision to show resurrected ones effectively frozen in time with the clothes and hairstyles of their era is crazy, and can only be an awkward tool to show "look, people will come from different time periods!"

  The depiction of national costumes is similar - another awkward way of saying "they will be from every country of the world!" - but at least there is more likelihood of having various styles of dress geographically, than of having say, a person in Roman robes alongside another dressed in Victorian stovepipe hat and frock coat.

  Regarding the questions about different clothing styles, why does The Watchtower depict them wearing clothing???
  Adam and Eve only started wearing clothing after they sinned.
  After we become perfect again, everything must go back to Jehovah's original perfect plan for mankind, the earth and the animals!

  Ah yes, now that's always been a live "debate" in JW circles. The "purists" would say yes, by the end of the 1000 years anyway, everything should go back to exactly as God had it in the Garden of Eden, because that was his original arrangement and he said it was "good". But there are a lot of other JWs who disagree, on the basis that God has allowed humans to change his mind on certain things through history (thus he might decide to allow them to continue wearing clothing). The wearing clothing was supposed to be linked to realising they were naked after becoming more "aware" of the choice of right or wrong, so it could be kept as a reminder to mankind of that original choice? I don't really have an opinion about that one either way. Could be just explained by the theology.

  However, the tablet is problematic too (as is most 'modern' technology). It implies the same technology as today will carry over into Paradise, despite the fact that it is all produced in an intensive and polluting way. Lithium batteries, circuit boards, LCD displays... Ok, it's possible some non-polluting, traditional way might be able to generate electric power at scale (water wheels and steam pumps, maybe). But the components needed for a 21st century style tablet? The manufacturing plants and processes? Hardly likely. Even in some theoretical world where some sort of substitute for computers is made using purely renewable and recyclable parts, it's unlikely to look exactly like an Android or iPad device!

  I hope they are putting down Trex flooring cause that deck needs to last for ever.

  Now you're being silly. Even now, when you build something in your 20s you don't necessarily think you'll never need to repair or replace it in your lifetime. Someone living forever is bound to have to rebuild every few years (decades? centuries?) even if they're "perfect". Also, some believe that God will 'reassign' people every so often - maybe 100 years up a mountain, then another 100 by an ocean or whatever. So you'd have to build new stuff or remove/renovate. There's never been any suggestion there will be no entropy and decay of materials like wood or stone either, so showing stuff being built/rebuilt doesn't seem so odd. But again, showing 21st century manufactured equipment such as hardhats is odd - unless they're just left over from pre-Armageddon!

  Really, the more recent depictions raise more questions than answers - at least the older pictures were (mostly) more "purist" in nature (if you'll pardon the pun) - not trying to mix up times, styles and technologies. And of course, insisting on making videos of everything - even when they're complete speculation - complicates the issue of what detail to show even more!
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  72

  The Watchtower's Depiction of 'paradise'..

  by Ron.W. in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  perhaps we could post the pictures the wt have presented in their literature that depict their version of paradise here for comment/discussion:.

  from: spirits of the dead​—can they help you or harm you?

  do they really exist?.

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  Journeyman

  Fascinating taking a walk down memory lane with all these images.

  Many of the questions raised are valid, of course. I don't mean about Paradise itself - you can take or leave those according to your belief - I mean about the Org's deliberate choices about how to depict life in Paradise.

  For example, here are my thoughts on some of the points raised:

  Why waterfalls and bridges?

  Good one. I hadn't really thought about it - well, the bridges at least. But I presume the waterfalls might be 1) an allusion to the verse in Revelation that talks about waters flowing down from the heavenly city, with trees growing alongside to give healing, or possibly if that's too "literal", maybe 2) simply that flowing, fresh water is considered a pleasing depiction of nature? Rivers, lakes and waterfalls usually feature in most favourite pastoral scenes, religious or otherwise.

  Several of the regular depictions make sense when you know the JW theology, as most of us do, for example:

  Animals and people close together, and vegetables and fruit but no meat-eating can both be explained by the beliefs around Genesis (Noah only given permission to eat meat later, suggesting vegetarian diet before then), and Isaiah (lion with lamb, little boy and cobra, etc) which the Jw theology attaches to future Paradise.

  As for the language all the people are able to communicate in, following the account of Pentecost (and even some proven real life cases where individuals have begun to speak in a language previously unknown to them) this is explicable according to the traditional beliefs.

  And what's the point of a Bible study?

  Come on, anyone who was even briefly a JW knows this one: the resurrected will still need a Bible study to get to know about God and everything that happened during the time they were in the grave -fulfilment of prophecy and all that! Another point that, though we may not believe it, at least fits the theology. More interestingly, are they actually studying the Bible, or some watered down, over-simplified "study aid" like yet another Enjoy Paradise Now Forever United In Worship of What God Requires brochure/video mishmash?