Posts by Journeyman

18

The Watchtower—Study Edition | January 2025 Husbands, Honor Your Wife

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

14 a husband who physically or verbally abuses his wife needs to take additional steps to repair his relationship with jehovah and with his wife.

what are these steps?

first, he recognizes that he has a serious problem.

Journeyman

Eventually we ended up leaving him when I was a teenager, believe it or not, on the advice of a local elder. This was a step not often advised by the brothers, but in our case it was and I'm forever thankful.

The brothers are ill equipped to advise in these situations.

Agreed, and that feeds into points raised in recent threads about the decreasing qualities of elders too. The modern breed of elders - especially ones under 30 - with little world experience either due to age or due to being wrapped up only in JW life, are woefully incapable of managing serious 'real world' issues like advising an abused wife with frightened children to care for.

At least some of the "old school" elders - who were usually men who had not grown up as JWs, and may even have fought in wars, been through divorce, suffered poverty or homelessness, been to prison or in other scuffles and scrapes of life - had seen real sufferings and hardships. Of course, that didn't make them all better: many were nasty characters with chips on their shoulders. But there were some, like the elder you mentioned, who were more pragmatic due to their life experience. This was true even of some older COs, at least when I was "young" as a JW, and no doubt older ones than me will remember the same types before the 1980s.

The more we enter an era of cookie-cutter older men trained by video clips and JW Org "schools" and handbooks only, not by real life, the more we are seeing them unable to support the congregations with their everyday struggles.

There was a recent video with the Org claiming they have a new "school" for men: "Principles of Divine Oversight" or something like that. Sounds like it's going to be all about admin, rules and regulations, and working for the Org rather than actual pastoral care. No surprise there.

18

The Watchtower—Study Edition | January 2025 Husbands, Honor Your Wife

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

14 a husband who physically or verbally abuses his wife needs to take additional steps to repair his relationship with jehovah and with his wife.

what are these steps?

first, he recognizes that he has a serious problem.

Journeyman

When I told the elders that I had been in contact with a domestic abuse agency for men they were shocked and disgusted because I had informed a worldly organisation and told them that I was recommend strongly to leave after the first call.

They should remember Rom. 13:1 and the many articles they've written stating that followers should obey the "superior authorities" and "Caesar's law" wherever it does not conflict with God's "law" - and prosecuting physical or emotional violence is clearly not against what Christians are taught. (It may be argued that the Old Testament allows it, but the New Testament and the changes brought about by Jesus clearly do not.) The same of course applies to CSA.

Yet for the sake of "reputation", the Org is desperate not to have the police involved. They claim it is because doing so brings "reproach" on God's name, and sometimes they misapply 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 about not taking a "brother" to court, but in fact, failing to clear out the "dead men’s bones and [...] every sort of uncleanness" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 23:27 is what brings reproach, not being honest and calling in outside assistance to "wipe the bowl clean" so to speak.

Male and female victims are abused in equal numbers, the issue has been that many men didn't or wouldn't admit that they were victims.

I don't think I can agree with this, assuming we are talking solely of violence within heterosexual couples, which of course is what the WT means. The data just doesn't bear that out.

According to the ONS, in England and Wales (Scotland has a separate judicial system) in 2023, 75.3% of recorded domestic abuse cases were against women.

In the USA (according to the CDC) in 2022, 41% of victims who have reported DV in their lifetime identified as female and 26% as male. That's obviously a much closer figure over a lifetime than the UK one which is only a snapshot of one year, and exactly what counts as DV or IPV is probably slightly different on either side of the pond, but both figures show a definite slant towards women being more commonly the victims. Also, secular figures include same-sex relationships, which would distort the picture, since we are only considering the JW viewpoint which would not include those.

Even if it is true that the number for men is lower than it should be due to male victims feeling shame or not thinking they would be believed if they report abuse by a female partner, the difference is so large that it is highly unlikely the true figure is "equal".

Still, the point I made earlier applies that however small in comparison, it's still significant in the harm caused to individual men and the people around them.

5

List of conventions that congregation are assigned to

by AdamCzarnobay in

jw
friends

does anyone have access to the list that shows which congregations are assigned to each convention in the uk.

would really like the 2024 list if anyone has it.. thanks in advance.

adam.

Journeyman

Good question, I'd like to see that. I know they've been messing about with the assignments in the London and SE area in recent years, they keep changing which circuits go to Excel and which ones go to Milton Keynes. For years it was the same - either Twickenham or Crystal Palace, then either Excel or Milton Keynes.

Also, any info about circuits and current COs in the UK would useful. Always interested to know how the Org is dividing things up these days, see what the trends and patterns seem to be in the UK.

37

Is it just me, or is Watchtower lowering its standards?

by ukpimo in

in the past, we used to hear talks on:.

avoiding sexual immorality and porn, as well as masturbation and other sexual practices.

why evolution cannot possibly be true.

Journeyman

we keep getting watchtowers and such saying the older men need to train younger men to take over. The issue is with this is that most of these older men were in this position as younger men and they never thought the system could last this long.

Not only that, but in the past when those elders were relatively young, they didn't think ahead about who would take over as they got older and less capable, and as the problems they had to deal with got worse. I know of several situations where elders kept overlooking young men as "not ready" for years, until those men moved on, either leaving the Org, becoming too busy with family and job, or in some cases becoming sick or otherwise no longer able to be considered. Now those ageing elders have the dilemma that the 'supply' of potential servants and elders is drying up, just when 'problems' in the congregations (family break-ups, depression, financial pressure, etc) are getting worse.

And it's not as though they weren't warned. Those WT articles you mentioned aimed at elders have been coming out every so often for years, saying they should train up younger men. But they didn't do it, probably because many of them were comfortable in their position and didn't want younger men challenging them.

The whole elder arrangement has been a cosy men's club in some congregations, and a fiery rivalry in others. Either way, in those situations, there would be no incentive for established elders to admit 'outside' younger men into it.

And if you set the bar so high that even say, a single instance of a young man "confessing" to viewing porn or some other youthful hi-jinks meant he was not considered for years, it's no wonder the Org is facing a crisis.

This is very good news for any men who are physically in but mentally out and who are appointed because they don’t have to come off they’re appointed MS or Elder they could just stay on and keep saying no to any assignments they are given unless they feel occasionally they might want to do some of the assignments

Indeed. I know of a number of MS and even a couple of elders who are rarely at meetings, only give a short item every month or two (maybe Gems or one of those 5 min ones before the book study), and apart from that are rarely seen or heard (never commenting in meetings or being seen at groups during the week). It seems you can only lose appointment now for being proved to have done something 'bad', or if you ask to step down. You cn always give ill-health or stress as an excuse. And with no need to even state your ministry hours if you're not a pioneer, it's even easier. Fine by me!

18

The Watchtower—Study Edition | January 2025 Husbands, Honor Your Wife

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

14 a husband who physically or verbally abuses his wife needs to take additional steps to repair his relationship with jehovah and with his wife.

what are these steps?

first, he recognizes that he has a serious problem.

Journeyman

There are two types of problematic WT articles - ones where the information given is wrong (and possibly even dangerous), and ones where the information itself is ok, but alternatives or further options are left out.

This article seems to be an example of the latter. I don't see anything wrong with what is specifically stated about the abusive man's behaviour and what he should do to change (apart from equating watching porn with being physically or verbally abusive - the two are not necessarily connected, although I am aware that research and evidence from many criminal cases shows a chronic porn habit can lead to a distorted and unhealthy view of women).

However, there is much that is omitted, as several people have pointed out.

Bear in mind that this part of the article is aimed at the offending husbands, so it wouldn't necessarily mention separation to avoid his cruelty. However, it should realistically state that an offending husband must recognise his wife's right to separate from him, even if only temporarily while he addresses his behaviour, and to call in secular authorities if he has broken the laws of the land (by domestic assault, criminal damage, etc).

Interestingly, I looked to see if there was a following article addressed to wives - they usually print these things together - but there is none. So I wonder if they're finally recognising they have a serious problem with abusive husbands? If so, it's probably fed by the constant talk about accepting headship, along with the adulation poured on elders (especially those who 'pioneer') regardless of their actual character and personality traits. That would easily inflate the egos of men who already have an exaggerated sense of their own importance, and many experiences from people on here have highlighted there are a lot of those in the congregations out there!

Edited to add: Also, as several of you on here pointed out, there is no mention of what a husband should do if HE is the victim of abuse from his spouse. Again, this seems to be a glaring omission, given what even the Org says about "critical times" meaning the behaviour of many people today is selfish and/or aggressive. They should acknowledge that men can be victims too, Even if the odds are much smaller, the consequences are still just as devastating for the individuals concerned and the family around them,

19

Convention attendance

by joe134cd in

just heard from a pimi cousin who recently attended a convention, and remarked about the low attendance.

peak was about 500. i remember that circuit, in years past, had attendances of 1000+.

it's been over a decade now since i last attended a jw convention.

Journeyman

I can't imagine the Org would dump Circuit Overseers - they need some sort of arrangement to monitor the actions of local elders and congregations and try to keep them in line with the mothership.

But then again, GB2.0 (or is it even GB2.5 by now?) are making a lot of surprising changes lately, so who knows?

As for the original topic, I'm sure total attendance numbers are falling overall across much of North America and Europe. Some regions might still see a more steady attendance than others, and patterns are hard to identify for certain yet, when many congregations and even whole circuits are being rearranged, but there are too many anecdotal stories of empty seats to be coincidental, or just an anomaly.

33

follower of Eric Wilson, abusive to single women covered by paying sums of money to support Beroean Pickets tourism trips.

by buzkid in

susanne eigenheer is an ex-jw and suffered religious abuse in eric wilson's group.

her personal statement and experiences within the beroean pickets study groups was one of betrayal where she was taken advantage of financially.

in one text conversation, wendy wiens disfellowshiped susanne and demanded an apology from her.

Journeyman

I used to watch Beroean Pickets quite regularly, and generally found Eric Wilson calm, reasonable and honest. I've not looked at his material for quite a while though, and I don't particularly intend to dive into this row either. But again, it does show the danger of putting too much trust in "mortal man in whom there is no salvation".

It's always instructive to see how someone reacts to an accusation. Recently in the UK, we've had a well-known TV personality accused of making sexual advances and offensive comments to female guests on his programme. His response was, in part, to say that his critics were all "middle-class women of a certain age" - hardly the statement of someone who is contrite or is humble in defending himself. Again, it was a dispute I hadn't followed closely and I had no personal view of the celebrity concerned either way, but hearing his choice of words in defence instantly made me suspect the accusations were fully justified.

As regards jumping from one "cult" to another, I think these words are apt:
Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many [...] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [...]
At that time if anyone says to you 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

19

Convention attendance

by joe134cd in

just heard from a pimi cousin who recently attended a convention, and remarked about the low attendance.

peak was about 500. i remember that circuit, in years past, had attendances of 1000+.

it's been over a decade now since i last attended a jw convention.

Journeyman

IIRC, the one and two-day events are "Assemblies" (held within one circuit) and the longer 3-day (used to be even longer) ones, usually in the summer here in the UK, are "Conventions" (held with multiple circuits). It's been that way for at least a couple of decades.

Back in 2006, it was definitely officially a "Convention" not an "Assembly". (Just Google 2006 District Convention and you'll see.)

Maybe locally bros informally called it an 'assembly', especially if it was held at a JW assembly hall rather than a football stadium or conference centre?

The main change was from "District Convention" to "Regional Convention", largely because they got rid of 'districts' (including 'sacking' the former District Overseers).

37

Is it just me, or is Watchtower lowering its standards?

by ukpimo in

in the past, we used to hear talks on:.

avoiding sexual immorality and porn, as well as masturbation and other sexual practices.

why evolution cannot possibly be true.

Journeyman

I agree about the watering down of requirements and reduction of standards. However, I disagree about this bit:

What next? I cannot see Watchtower making any more significant changes for some time.

The current GB have shown, with the various and seemingly random changes of the last couple of years, they they are not averse to changing whatever they want to, whenever they feel like it. Including changing members of the GB itself.

If, as many suspect, most of their changes are driven by financial issues, a realisation they cannot control day-to-day behaviour any more, or a desire to cosy up to 'secular' authorities, then there's no reason to suspect there may not be other unexpected (or perhaps even long hoped-for) changes in the pipeline.

Recent GB talks have even continued to hint at more changes to come, and with "new blood" on the GB and the oldest members looking like they don't have long left, I think we can expect to see more "adjustments".

Whether any of them will be truly radical, and what effect they will have on the R&F and on numbers at meetings and doing ministry, remains to be seen though. The only aspects that won't change are:
1) Obey the GB without question
2) give money, and
3) put "kingdom interests" first (ie: do more for the organisation).

And of course, linked to 1) is accept all changes without dispute, because according to them we are "so close" to the end and "all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not". (WT 15/11/2013)

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

So, we've now had several days since three major headlines which our "boy" could've covered if he was really bothered.

1) The news about Ramapo construction going ahead;

2) The statistical 'highlights' from the 2023-4 JW service year report;

3) The news about the Archbishop of Canterbury resigning over CSA in the CofE church - a story which has thrown the spotlight back on the inadequacy of IICSA, the inquiry which he was involved in (and was only too keen to be seen at - and to share his opinions with the world - at the time).

Yet... not a peep on any of those so far. But he has done another 'voicemail' item (recycling content provided by his audience) and made a video about "all the beard jokes at the Annual Meeting". So that's great then.