Posts by Journeyman

25

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

Journeyman

KalebOutWest - thanks for your answers. I was genuinely interested to know.

Then you added the prayers of Jesus. These have nothing to do with Judaism.

The reason for additionally asking about Jesus is that, as he was raised a Jew, I was interested in knowing to what extent his teaching really was a "break" from what went before. It's said to be radically different by both Jews and Christians (Jews, often to discredit what he said as heretical; Christians so as to claim their belief as a refinement or improvement on what went before), so I was interested in hearing your thought on just how different his message really would have sounded. From what you say, it was indeed a marked difference.

25

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

Journeyman

In fact, Jews do not believe that God actually listens to prayer. He might, but then again God might not. That is not what prayer is about in Judaism.
[...]
Instead of believing that one's prayers are being heard by God or one is asking God for something, like Jehovah's Witnesses do, Jews are doing something entirely different. Jews believe they are mostly hearing God talk to them.
[...]
There is little in the way of requests in Jewish prayer. Even when one is sick or one dies, prayer is blessing God, asking that one learns to accept their place in the constant changes of reality, blessing these as they come, etc.

That's fascinating, but if so, that raises questions in my mind.

Does the evidence indicate that was what Jewish prayer always meant, or was that what it came to mean through human scholarly and rabbinic traditions over the centuries? The indications from many specific prayers recorded in the Hebrew scriptures suggest those giving them often requested something personally and truly believed God would hear them, for example:
Abraham - "Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelek, his wife and his female slaves so they could have children again" (Genesis 20:17)
David - "Lord, the God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Israel, keep these desires and thoughts in the hearts of your people forever, and keep their hearts loyal to you. And give my son Solomon the wholehearted devotion to keep your commands, statutes and decrees and to do everything to build the palatial structure for which I have provided." (1 Chronicles 29:18,19)
Jacob - "Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau, for I am afraid he will come and attack me, and also the mothers with their children." (Genesis 32:11)
Hannah - "In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. And she made a vow, saying, 'Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant’s misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head.'" (1 Samuel 1:10,11)

Some of those verses were mixed in with what your quote calls more fixed prayers which I can understand, but are clearly personal requests or pleadings - for example, David's words in 1 Chronicles.

On the other hand, if it was always understood to be that way, doesn't that mean that the kind of prayer Jesus taught his followers was radically different? Jesus clearly taught that prayer was intended to include direct personal requests, petitions, hopes, fears and desires, as well as the things you mention (wisdom to accept ones' place, thanksgiving to God, recognise his will, etc), and so was not mainly to be "fixed" in the same sort of way.

16

The Curious Case of Cameroon in Africa in the World Report

by LaFrancia in

we know that in africa warwick/watchtower is adopting a policy of more congregations with fewer publishers in each congregation.

this explains the growth of congregations in the 2024 world report.. cameroon world report 2019 vs. 2024.. with the same number of publishers the congregations grew by about 13%.. will there be many more curious cases out there?.

Journeyman

I think Careful could be on to something there. The Org has become obsessed with more and more localised and niche languages - a look at all their literature releases and the languages they claim on their website shows this. And foreign language groups and congregations are likely to be smaller, but more numerous in countries with many local tribes, languages and dialects, as can apply across Africa.

Although Fulano says that Cameroon is mostly French or English speaking, that World Atlas data does suggest more than a quarter of the population speak neither language, and recent news from Africa shows that the Francophone world there is getting sick of French colonial presence and increasingly rejecting French political and military influence, just as they have from English colonial powers, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were not a corresponding rise in take-up of local dialects and languages, as often happens when culture becomes politicised.

Apart from French and English, the Find A Meeting on the JW website says they have meetings in Cameroon in:

Douala
Ewondo
West African Pidgin
Cameroon Sign Language
Ghomala
Gbaya
Boulou
Toupouri
Awing

Some of them seem to be highly regional - for example, "Awing" only seems to exist in three congregations clustered in the NW of the country. According to Wikipedia the language is thought to have 19,000 native speakers in that region (2001 figures, so could be more now, but still quite a small population).

This article from last summer outlines some of the problems faced in Francophone Africa, and why they are leaning away from France and looking to increase their own independence.
https://www.voanews.com/a/cameroon-meeting-of-french-speaking-africa-lawmakers-decry-instability-foreign-influence-/7633204.html

17

Footage from Recently Converted Kingdom Hall to a Mosque

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/kjqwfeuhpji?si=6ahbituygdyiq3za.

when jehovah’s witnesses dedicate their kingdom halls, they often refer to the example of solomon dedicating the temple in jerusalem.

it’s a solemn moment.

Journeyman

It's a double standard if they sell the Kingdom Halls to Christendom, Judaism or Islam.

I completely agree. Ok, sometimes the Org might not know who ends up with the site if it's sold via a property company first, so that's understandably out of their hands. But if they knowingly sell it on to another religious group, that's surely hypocrisy.

Buildings in the UK are generally categorised and sold as designated for a specific purpose, so if it's previously been for religious use it is known as category F1 which I believe is non-residential and non-commercial use but also covers schools, galleries, libraries and museums, so the org could still sell to one of those institutions instead without anyone having to apply for a change of use.

Picture this: a Kingdom Hall, dedicated with heartfelt prayers to Jehovah, sold to the highest bidder just a few years later. And not just any bidder—sometimes, to groups whose practices stand in stark contrast to biblical teachings.

Whether the building is knowingly sold to another religion or not, if they have a dedication to Jehovah for a Hall at the start, shouldn't they at the very least carry out some sort of "undedication" ceremony before leaving it? Otherwise they've effectively sold something "dedicated" to God to someone else who might have completely different attitudes (as in the example from the OP). It all seems very weird, not to say blasphemous if one is supposed to be a faithful believer.

5

Bible Lessons You Won't Learn From The GB

by Journeyman in

for those on this forum who still consider themselves christian or students of the bible, are there any bible principles you came across during your own study or research that were never brought out by the gb of the jws but that you found significant or profound?.

i don't mean doctrinal issues like the trinity, heaven & hell, etc, as these are issues christendom has been arguing over for centuries.

i mean simple, scriptural principles that the gb could've highlighted at any time, but for various reasons - some obvious, some less so - have chosen not to.. one that stood out to me is in 1 samuel chapters 2, 3 and 4.. young samuel has been dedicated to the temple and is being raised to serve god there.

Journeyman

For those on this forum who still consider themselves Christian or students of the Bible, are there any Bible principles you came across during your own study or research that were never brought out by the GB of the JWs but that you found significant or profound?

I don't mean doctrinal issues like the trinity, heaven & hell, etc, as these are issues Christendom has been arguing over for centuries. I mean simple, scriptural principles that the GB could've highlighted at any time, but for various reasons - some obvious, some less so - have chosen not to.

One that stood out to me is in 1 Samuel chapters 2, 3 and 4.

Young Samuel has been dedicated to the temple and is being raised to serve God there. He is under the High Priest Eli and his two sons Hophni and Phineas. Eli is shown to be a weak father and leader (1 Samuel 3:13, 18), while his two sons are corrupt, behaving selfishly and misleading the rest of the priests (1 Samuel 2:12-17).

Despite these bad examples at the very top of God's "earthly organisation", Samuel continues to do what is right and ends up blessed, while Hophni, Phineas and Eli all die prematurely (1 Samuel 2:31,34, 1 Samuel 3:12-14, 1 Samuel 4:17,18) .

The lesson: Sometimes, bad people, or at least, weak people who make bad decisions, rise to the top of an organisation, and this can also apply in God's earthly arrangements.

Another example is High Priest Aaron when Moses went up to Mount Sinai to receive the Commandments. He foolishly let the people persuade him into making a golden calf, then led them in using it to worship God. Imagine how difficult that could've been for an Israelite who DIDN'T want to do that. Would they have been considered "disobedient to divine direction" at the time?

And it was not only in pre-Christian times. Paul warned his brothers about "certain men" who had slipped into the congregation and were teaching false and corrupting things to mislead others.

So sometimes, the men leading God's "earthly arrangement" will be wrong, and even wicked in their intentions. At times like that, it is up to individual worshippers to continue to do what is right, ignoring their false leaders if necessary, since each of us carry our own load of responsibility before God (Galatians 6:5) and we must obey God rather than men, if the two are in conflict (Acts 5:29).

Why the GB don't highlight this lesson: Obviously, it would undermine their own claim of exclusive favour from Jehovah God and their demand for total obedience. It would highlight the facts that 1) men at the top of any human organisation can sometimes be wrong, or even wicked, and 2) not everything said from the top of such an organisation may be correct.

The other related principles glossed over are that more will be demanded of those taking the lead, and they will receive a "greater judgement". (Luke 12:48, James 3:1)

Sometimes the Org will dance around this subject, like in this week's study WT on Injustice where they weakly acknowledge in paragraph 2 that some Witnesses might be treated "unjustly either by those outside the congregation or by those inside the congregation" - giving an example of one brother who was falsely accused of stealing from the contributions - but they will never come out and admit that a whole body of elders might be corrupt, or that specific instructions or direction from the GB might prove to be wrong or misleading, and that God and Jesus will judge these ones even more strongly.

14

The Greeks had a word for it, but the Watchtower didn't

by Nathan Natas in

i recall as though it was only 60 years ago, sitting in the kingdom hall on those horrible chairs, learning of the four forms of love: agape, philia, storge and eros.. the watchtower never mentioned pragma.. pragma: this is a committed, compassionate love that often grows as two partners continue to cherish and care for each other.

this type of love is associated with being together for a long time.

in some cases, the passion of eros can grow into pragma over time, this forging a lasting bond.. i think i know why; the watchtower isn't into committed, compassionate, cherishing and caring, are they?.

Journeyman

Interesting topic. Yes, apparently there are 8 types of love theorised by Greek philosophy, not just four.

A quick Google search shows even some other sites about philosophy, love or psychology only refer to 5 or 6, so there seems to be some confusion or cherry-picking about the exact number that "matter", but it appears the total number was 8:

Agape - unconditional love
Eros - romantic love
Ludus - playful love
Mania - obsessive love
Philautia - self-love
Philia - friendly love
Pragma - committed love
Storge - familial love

Except... again, a ninth type is mentioned in the Wikipedia article on the subject, which leaves out three of the others (Ludus, Mania, Pragma), giving only a total of 6:

Xenia - hospitable love

So was it 8 or 9? Perhaps a Greek, or someone with knowledge of Greek philosophy, will be able to clarify?

I did a quick search of the WT online library and can find no mention of "Pragma" or "Xenia" on there, but 88 for "Agape", a dozen for "Storge" and even about 40 for "Eros".

While I can understand that Ludus, Mania and Philautia are not mentioned by the GB, it's curious that the org has never made mention of Pragma or Xenia, since they seems to fit well with Christian principles. Yet the GB never even mention them in passing.

EDITED: I discovered later that "Xenia" is also known as "Philoxenia" - love of strangers. Apparently, the latter word IS in the WT online library about six times on the subject of hospitality. Still no "Pragma" though!

4

January 2025 Letter to the Elders

by blondie in

jw
friends

i used to send my comments on these letters to atlantis, so i will share them here if that is okay, if not, i'll still do it.

:) 1) medical matters: (technology has arrived) listing of hlc members is not online and updated regularly, but only elders have access, not for general circulation.

(and in case the reader of the letter needs clarification) copies should not be made for publishers or on the information board (!).

Journeyman

4) Re: Security plan. In fairness, one doesn't need to be a "security expert" to have some sort of security plan. These days, we should all have one. For example: What would you/your household do if someone broke into your home while you were there? What would you do if threatened on the street? These are commonsense precautions, not things that need specific security training (although of course, taking the advice of a genuine professional such as someone in the police, military or other defence field would be ideal).

Bear in mind also that there are a number of JWs who have been trained in security, either because that is or was their secular work, or they are ones whose main responsibility is in leading and teaching brothers to be attendants. I don't know how it used to be years ago, and it may not be the same everywhere, but living in a major city I know that many elders who are captains of attendant teams for conventions, etc, have been on official security courses.

Here in the UK, there is a body called the Security Industry Authority (SIA) which regulates and administers courses for security professionals such as door staff. In some cases, versions of these courses are paid for or run by Bethel, and the brothers trained at those are of course members of regular bodies of elders in their respective congregations, so some degree of trained security knowledge is available at a local level, if not in every congregation, at least in most circuits.

In the case of the JWs and their Hall security plan, I believe this has come about from a combination of three Ps: practicality, preparedness and paranoia. On the practicality and preparedness, there have been some genuine cases of serious security breaches at Halls - such as the shooting in Hamburg in 2023 - and at a lower level, numerous instances of disgruntled exJWs or "unbelieving" family members who have entered Halls and tried to disrupt meetings, occasionally violently. And of course, Kingdom Halls are not the only venues at risk. Experience from the USA especially shows that any religious building, shopping mall, school/college or large building where people gather is a potential target for extremists or nutters.

However, there is also an element of paranoia with the practicality, which stems from the constant teaching that all JWs are under attack from the outside world.

Ultimately, I think all buildings open to the public should have a security plan anyway. The JW one is generally around how to deal with potentially disruptive individuals (spotting warning signs on approach/entry, how to engage with people), possible fire or suspicious packages, evacuation (what routes to take, what triggers/signals will be given to alert others) and practical preventative measures. The latter includes many congregations closing their Hall doors shortly after the meeting time begins and posting attendants at the door (and other strategic locations if necessary, like car parks) to manage who is allowed in afterwards.

8) On attendant training, AFAIK all attendants must be baptised. The training covers the kind of things I mentioned above, and these days includes videos (of course - as with everything in JW-land) on what to look out for and how to engage with attendees to determine if they might be disruptive or not (the principles in these videos apply to local meetings too).

I realise that laws and regulations in other countries differ, so maybe not all attendant training is so rigorous, but I would imagine in the USA and EU countries too, there is probably similar structured training to a higher degree than was done in the past.

16

The Curious Case of Cameroon in Africa in the World Report

by LaFrancia in

we know that in africa warwick/watchtower is adopting a policy of more congregations with fewer publishers in each congregation.

this explains the growth of congregations in the 2024 world report.. cameroon world report 2019 vs. 2024.. with the same number of publishers the congregations grew by about 13%.. will there be many more curious cases out there?.

Journeyman

Interest finds! Sounds like a bit more of a deep dive into the ratios of publishers to congregations is needed

One possible reason for some difference in numbers of congregations could be around foreign languages. Foreign language congregations tend to be smaller than regular "native" ones. But that would only apply to some extent - it seems unlikely to explain such a big jump in the number of congregations in a land when the total publisher count remains much the same.

Other factors I can think of might be:

Distances travelled: if the terrain is hostile or travel is otherwise difficult in a land where there are a lot of JWs per capita (parts of Africa, for instance?) it may be possible to set up smaller more local congregations if there are sufficient young brothers to lead the meetings;

Opposition from authorities: keeping congregations small makes them less likely to draw attention from the authorities when people meet, and would limit the risk of large numbers being arrested at any one time if the meeting was raided.

Still, none of these factors alone would explain the whole picture, and unless we can see how widespread this phenomena is and what sort of countries in involves it's hard to see why this should be. Is it just the more "underdeveloped" nations with relatively large populations of JWs that are doing this? It can't be possible to do this in the wealthier nations where there has been much less growth, as we know the Org is struggling to find enough brothers to take the lead in those places.

88

Annual Report

by St George of England in

the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

george.

Journeyman

The fact that - up until recently at least - it's been very hard to just be a passive attendee in the JWs may well have a large part to play in all this. Until recent significant changes, it's not really been possible to identify as a JW and "associate" without significant effort.

Unlike many other faiths where it is sufficient just to turn up to the local place of worship now and then, the JWs have demanded considerable effort to be considered one of them. Attending two (originally three) meetings a week, monthly report of "significant" field service (usually at least 8-10 hours), regularly meeting with your local group for "hall cleaning", twice yearly circuit overseer visits and assemblies, a Memorial and a summer convention, and so on. Any significant failure in any of those areas used to result in awkward questions at best, and at worst, the dreaded "shepherding visit"!

I'm sure this is a significant part of what has kept the numbers steadier for the JWs compared to many other religions. Until very recently, you've really had to work on being a "member" (and at the same time, suppress or erase any doubts or tendency to relax/back-pedal).

However, I do suspect that the many "simplifications" of the past 5-10 years will begin to significantly eat into the JW numbers soon - perhaps in the next 3-5 years, and growing after that. Having said that, there is the opposite possibility that by becoming "JW Lite", still with the promises of paradise and resurrection, etc, but with a "softer" approach to discipline and lower "barriers" to staying in, that might actually give them a short-term boost, as inactive ones, hesitant family members and others who have previously hovered on the edge of the JWs might decide to join now.

I’m still reeling from the fact that people don’t have a physical Bible and don’t bother looking up the scriptures any more.

I'm with you on that. I've kind of got over not hearing the rustle of pages, but the fact that there are practically no physical publications used at all is so weird: the speakers use tablets, the songs are projected on screens, and everyone follows on their phone or other mobile device. And of course, in several places, significant numbers are not even physically present, but connecting online on a regular basis!

26

Age Appropriate Friends

by Riley in

jw
friends

we have a 25 year guy in our hall who is also a pioneer (which means he lives off his parents money), who likes to spend a lot of time with a 16 year old girl in the hall.

it is usually in a group setting but he seems to gravitate toward her.

he even has her auxilary pioneering , which is something i don't think any student trying to make the grades needs.

Journeyman

I find these situations very weird. We know the JWs have a major internal problem with "inappropriate" sexual goings-on (to put it mildly), but in the congregations I've been in (admittedly not many), situations like this just wouldn't have happened (at least not openly as reported here).

Maybe it's because I'm in an English inner city where elders tend to be much more wary and on the look-out for anything that hints of "immorality", but any kind of arrangement like the one described would've been stamped on very quickly. In my experience, it's difficult enough to make a regular ministry arrangement with a single "sister" at any time without people making comments about whether one of you is "interested" in the other, and even just a brother sitting next to a sister at the meetings a few times would get attention! Even in social groups, "younger ones" tend to be "encouraged" not to gather together too much without adults and/or family members being involved in the groupings.

It all makes it rather stifling and dull for grown adults and single ones who genuinely want to mingle with the opposite sex without being over-policed, but it does at least mean the elders are not allowing the kind of lax contact that I frequently read of on here, which has led to so many shocking incidents.