Posts by Journeyman

3

Am I a Return Visit?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

well, i'm still processing this one.

saturday morning just gone.

my wife says: "there's a man in a suit at the door!

Journeyman

The whole recent thing about elders being encouraged to "persuade" publishers to drop RVs if they are not "progressing" appropriately is very odd and, like a lot of things, contradictory.

On the one hand, the message has always been "we cannot read hearts" and "it's not for us to judge or presume when only Jehovah knows if the person is ready and worthy", etc. And in recent times, with softening of the teaching about whether God will destroy every non-JW at Armageddon or not, that message has in fact been repeated more.

BUT

At the same time, the Org keeps pushing the idea that publishers should not "waste time" with "unproductive" Bible studies and return visits, and they have even given supposed indicators of evidence whether someone is making sufficient "progress", including this checklist from a few years ago:

Before discontinuing a Bible study, seek Jehovah’s direction in prayer.
While taking into account the student’s age or other limitations, look for indications of meaningful progress.

Does the person keep his appointments to study?
Does he prepare for the study?
Does he attend congregation meetings?
Is he making changes in harmony with Bible principles?
Does he share with others what he is learning?
Is he withdrawing from false religion?

In countries where JWs are being approached by many to have Bible studies I can perhaps understand this (allegedly, this is the case in some parts of Africa and South America, for example), but for most of the world I would imagine this is counterproductive to the ministry of most JWs. They have to make all of these assessments, potentially asking intrusive questions to do so, and at the end of it, might just drop an interested person leaving them hanging if they are not making what the Org deems the right "progress"!

That's when it emerged that one of the ladies from a previous visit had apparently said something about me being aggressive and argumentative. So it seems that they do keep some sort of record about what the households are like, if only a mental note.

Ah yes, well even though JWs have been sternly ordered NOT to keep any written records of their ministry now (at least in the UK and Europe - I don't know about elsewhere in the world), we all know that the Kingdom Hall is a perfect place for discussion of who lives where, what they're like and so on, and that applies to people met on the ministry just as much as fellow JWs! You're probably right that as a "brother" and one who needs to "get his hours in", he was probably either persuaded, or agreed, to take you on!

Bottom line is, if you want to make sure you DON'T become a "return visit" for longer than you're comfortable with, make sure you DON'T give that pioneer enough to say "Yes" to all of those checklist questions!

In all seriousness, just be straight with him. If you're happy to discuss Bible topics with him but don't want a study or anything more, say so. If you're happy to even study with him, but you will not take it any further, say so. Then let him make the call, but if he tries to push you beyond what you've agreed to, just draw the line and remind him, and stop it if and when you're ready.

I've always preferred that open approach with my return visits, and I respect when they can (politely) tell me "no thanks" or "that's enough", so I can move on and neither of us wastes each other's time!

16

Is There Some Sort of Campaign On?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

on friday, i walked to my doctor's to pick up a couple of prescriptions*.

from there i walked in to town to the chemist's (pharmacy) to get the scripts filled.

it's winter here, and my town can get get colder than is average for my state**.

Journeyman

I mentioned the two trolleys/carts being set up at different ends of the main street and being manned by three men each, and my interlocutor didn't seem to have much knowledge of how the trolley/cart ministry worked.

Unless a "publisher" has been "approved" for public witnessing* by their local elders, they may not be sure about how it operates. The precise local details (dates, times and locations) are at the discretion of each congregation, so they would be agreed by the elders and passed down to the "approved list" of publishers. Each congregation (or group of congregations) maintains their own timetable/schedule for how it works. If your main street happens to mark a division between two congregation territories, that might explain why you saw two different groups on the same road.

The same might happen if one is English and another a foreign language, but presumably that was not the case as you would have noticed the difference (unless one was perhaps Sign Language, as their text can look similar but strangely "wrong" to non-SL readers!)

Generally, the approved list for a congregation would automatically include their pioneers, but you mention the man you met was an auxiliary pioneer (which is usually a temporary arrangement, one month at a time), so if he only does that from time-to-time he may not qualify. Or he may simply not have offered/volunteered himself to do it.

* - "Public witnessing" is what they officially call working locally on literature trolleys, though that's a bit odd, since it's all technically public witnessing! The other more "elite" version of this is "special metropolitan public witnessing", which is done at major city locations like railway stations or business districts, and is another "step up" from public witnessing, being organised by the branch and only available to the likes of experienced regular pioneers, etc. (Of course, the Org has to have a hierarchy in there!)

280

Where is Tony?

by Athanasius in

jw
friends

on february 22, 2023, anthony morris iii was officially removed from the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

a few months later it was revealed that the watchtower bought him a house in lumberton, north carolina.. however, and correct me if i am wrong, since leaving the gb nobody has reported seeing tony attending jw meetings or participating in field service.

in fact nobody has reported seeing him anywhere, not even at a local liquor store.

Journeyman

There's presumably some sort of NDA between the Org and AMIII (which likely includes clauses over his right to the property and probably a stipend/pension for the rest of his days in return for him staying below the radar).

That being the case, if he has become "inactive" - stopped attending meetings and preaching, and dropped out of sight of the "brothers" - no-one will chase him to bring him back to the "flock", since there is likely a mutual agreement not to get in each others' way any more, since both parties probably hold enough dirt about each other to be equivalent to the Cold War policy of "MAD" (Mutually Assured Destruction)!

From a theological perspective, if they had to comment the current GB would probably explain it that as a former "anointed one", he knows what's required and what the consequences of walking away are, so there is no need to try to "readjust" him and bring him back. Either that or they would just say he is "unwell" and recuperating under the "care" of the Org.

16

Is There Some Sort of Campaign On?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

on friday, i walked to my doctor's to pick up a couple of prescriptions*.

from there i walked in to town to the chemist's (pharmacy) to get the scripts filled.

it's winter here, and my town can get get colder than is average for my state**.

Journeyman

I'm not sure what their business model is. To be seen, but not to be actually doing anything of substance?

When the trolley* work first began, the original training was to hold up magazines and try to engage people. Rather like the old Witnesses used to do outside railway stations and the like. This led to a huge number of placements per month. We used to get a lot of people coming up to talk too.

I believe this was happening in a lot of other places too, and even photos in the old Kingdom Ministry for meetings at the time used to show Witnesses standing holding mags, as the "model" of how to do it.

After a few months though, reports must have got back to "Mother" in the USA that this was costing the Org a fortune, because suddenly the edict came down that we should NOT hold out publications, but instead leave them on the trolleys and "direct interested ones" to there for literature.

One of the excuses given was that we are not supposed to be like free newspaper distributors who dish out their copies only to see most left littering the streets or trains/buses. We are supposed to "value" our literature more highly (but surely getting the message into the hands of people is most important? You know, that "giving a witness" thing?)

I realised straight away that would fail, and I also (correctly) worked out that that would soon make the Witnesses staffing the trolleys disengage. If you're not holding literature and trying to catch people's eyes, what is there to do for an hour or more? The answer soon came: chatting among themselves and playing on phones or holding cups of coffee.

Over time, this "direction" became even more watered down: the Org has narrowed the number of items they suggest are made available on the trolleys, and all instruction generally steers people towards the website instead. More recent pictures have shown Witnesses (including GB members) standing at the trolleys using only a tablet.

So the initial success of the trolley work - placing literature and catching people's attention - was sabotaged by the Org itself, once it realised it came at a financial cost. This shows they were not really interested in spreading the message widely, getting more conversations and possibly even increasing members - not if it came with a price tag!

* = In the UK we generally don't call those mobile stands for literature "carts" but "trolleys". A small, hand-propelled container for carrying objects is usually called a trolley not a cart (shopping trolley, dessert trolley, etc). "Cart" is usually used to refer to a larger containerised transport, pulled by one or more people, or by animals.

35

1/2 of the Jehovah’s witnesses have gone

by hoser in

jw
friends

there are 1/2 of the jehovah’s witnesses that there were 30 years ago in my area.

some have left but i think that many have died and none of their kids stayed being jehovah’s witnesses.

7 congregations have been dissolved over the years.

Journeyman

I can only speak for here in the UK, but I don't believe that "half of the JWs have gone".

However, I wouldn't be surprised if a large number are effectively passive participants now, certainly in Western countries.

There have been a number of changes in recent years which many of us have commented on in other threads, that may not have reduced the numbers of JWs but have certainly reduced their activity and what used to be called "zeal".

the numbers who have not returned to in-person meetings since COVID;
the number of foreign language groups and even congregations that have been disbanded;
the noticeable drop in the number of "publishers" regularly going out on field service from the groups, firstly since the return after COVID, and another drop since the removal of the hour reporting requirements for everyone;
the reduction in baptisms in English congregations.

I think that a large number - possibly as many as half, but at least a significant minority - are simply going through the motions. They still consider themselves JWs, not for the sake of the GB but based on their own belief in Jehovah God himself and their own understanding of the Bible (not all of which might align with the GB2.0 teachings any more, especially since these seem to change with the wind these days). However, for various reasons - ranging from burnout, to distractions from everyday life, to a lack of a personal sense of urgency - they don't act as the "old school" JWs of the pre-2000s did.

This might mean there is a something of a timebomb ticking in the congregation of members who will rebel or just not follow "direction" in the near future, but I don't sense a huge wave of leavers at the present time. The number of incomers (from new students and baptisms) is definitely drying up though.

18

KH for sale--Ryde --isle of Wight--UK

by stan livedeath in

sheer joy.. the local kingdumb hall is up for sale.

a quick build from 1984. i went in there once--for a relative's wedding.

half a million pounds.. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-44198850.html.

Journeyman

Do these quick builds where even children and "have a go henrys" attended and passed bricks along a long line. Do they still go on?

Since the RBC arrangement was replaced by LDCs, things have got more professional at least. But the downside is that the locals are less involved and invested in the construction. Yes, they still take local volunteers, but they have to register first on the JW website (stating what relevant skills they have, etc), and management of it all is taken out of their hands and run by the members of the LDC that are ~~imposed on~~ assigned to the locality from the Branch to oversee the work.

It's a way for the Org to completely centralise what happens, even down to telling the brothers what kind of decor they are allowed to use, what models of AV and IT equipment, etc. I think it's supposed to be the Org's way of "rewarding" local congregations after having ~~stolen~~ claimed the deeds of their Halls and most of their monthly contributions, on the promise that "Mother" will take care of their future construction and repair needs. But it's also a clever way of tightening overall control.

Looking at the IoW specifically, I see they still have one lone congregation at Freshwater out in the west that's looking vulnerable. Just one cong left in a small bungalow hall? Got to be ripe for selling off too, I would imagine! That would help ~~settle another lawsuit~~ build another couple of African halls, right?

3151

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Financially speaking, he's really in a dilemma, especially given his unwillingness (and after all these years now, his lack of qualifications and ability) to work hard.

He's not done enough of any consequence to be really "settled" in Croatia - he's not even bothered to properly learn the language, for goodness sakes - BUT equally, he's not in a position to return to the UK either.

He's burned his bridges with family back home (and with others who would know him from the North West), so he'd have to stay away from that part of the country, at least. And just as in Croatia, he's not worked enough (or at all) to have any chance at a decent pension in the UK either. I would assume that at least in Croatia the cost of living would be less crippling.

Here in the UK, living on a minimum jobseeker's income or basic state pension is damn near impossible if you have no family or support network willing to help you. Not that he qualifies for state pension in the UK for about another 20 years anyway. The only money he could get is jobseeker's allowance and maybe some top-ups if he can claim 'disability' or 'hardship', but despite what people have heard about the British benefits system, contrary to what it used to be 20 or so years ago, it's NOT a generous way of living, especially if you are a native white British citizen with no custody of dependent children, as he is.

The only other option for someone with nothing else would be to enter into a criminal lifestyle (drug dealing, fraud, robbery, whatever). But you'd have to be at least slightly competent to escape being caught and punished, and I doubt he could do that! Plus, can you really imagine him having 'underworld' contacts that would trust him, given his track record with other people?

Oh well, what's that old expression about reaping what you sow?

40

The Governing Body is Restructuring the Org.and encouranging young ones to REACH OUT!

by liam in

the governing body just doesn't let up on encouraging the young children to reach out to do free labor for the organization.

so another generation of young people with ruined lives.

another generation of young people that will get old and wake up in their 50s to realize they were in a religious doomsday cult.. and they are getting rid of some old workers that ran the branches of the organization, and giving them different assignments or maybe they are just sending them home, who knows.

Journeyman

When it comes to the shocking practice of dumping long-term servants at Bethel, or in fulltime service on the circuit, when they reach 70 or 80, the GB would do well to heed the warning in 1 Timothy 5:8:

"Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."

Given that they even talk of brothers and sisters there as the Bethel FAMILY, they can't get away with excusing it with: "they're not REALLY our 'household' - their blood relations or local congregations back home should take care of them now"!

At the least they should give these ones a decent payoff, based on their years of service, to help them settle back in a local congregation. I'm sure they could afford that from the flipping of just a couple of their major facilities or assembly halls.

13

Baptismal Failure Rates Among JW Bible Teachers

by Sea Breeze in

jw
friends

the 2024 data from the jw website indicates that jw teachers have an over 96% failure rate with their students : .

2024 average bible studies each month: 7,480,146.

2024 baptisms:296,267. number of bible studies it takes to produce one baptism : 25.25. this means that jehovah's witnesses have an over 96% failure rate with people who want to study the bible with them.

Journeyman

This means that Jehovah's Witnesses have an over 96% failure rate with people who want to study the bible with them.

It is quite remarkable, and obviously that's got worse over the past few decades, as the total number of hours needed to bring a study to baptism has soared.

IMO, that's because the way of teaching - and the publications used - have become more and more dumbed down and detached from reality.

I first became a JW during the days of the red "Live Forever" book (followed by the blue "United In Worship" book, for those who 'progressed'). Prior to that it had been "The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life".

These were both substantial books, and the meeting and WT study content back then was deeper stuff too.

However, the most recent study publications are so lightweight - and the meetings too - that it's hard to see that any of the "reasoning" used in lessons today can really build a faith in people.

True, many of us here would now say the "deep things" they taught before were false (and they've further crippled themselves by abandoning a lot of their own teachings en masse), but it was at least, by the standards of the time, more convincing than stuff like "overlapping generations" or messages like "we are not inspired by God, but trust us even if you don't understand what we ask you to do"!

Also, the Org has become so scared of its own shadow, that it no longer has the backbone it used to, in standing up for what it supposedly believes. That shows in two ways: even more regular flip-flopping or ditching of previously important doctrines - or even not seeming to know their own previous teachings - and a lack of real courage in defending its' supposed principles. These days, the Org fights court cases, not over principles like free speech and the right to preach, but over issues like whether to compensate victims of harassment or abuse. None of those things are likely to attract new members as indicators of a morally upright or courageous organisation.

The reasons why they don't seem to care? The new GB is no longer concerned about increasing numbers in the congregations as their number 1 (or even 2) goal, as the old ones used to be. Their priority seems to be purely financial survival now. So of course, they don't mind if there's no huge influx, because any significant increase would put more demand on for Halls, assemblies and for help for the R&F in poorer lands, at a time when they are trying to shed costs, but hold onto their core membership that is still "loyal". You don't even hear them boasting much about "growth" like they used to either, not just because it's slowed down, but because that's no longer their major motivation at the top.

As long as they give the R&F the impression of activity (what used to be called "busy work"), they've actually removed a lot of what drove or motivated the ministry in the past: hourly requirements (unless pioneering); most print publications and number of monthly magazines; quality and depth of the schools and ways of teaching ministry; the concept that this was truly "life-saving" work with an imminent deadline; the idea of "bloodguilt" on the part of JWs if they don't preach (you never hear that one brought out now) - all gone or significantly reduced.

Those who compared the Org to a MLM or major business are right in this regard: when a company is "young", its priority is sales and growth, but as it matures and begins to fall back in the market, its priority becomes cost-cutting and pure survival (especially for the shareholders). This includes cutting outlets or branches (kingdom halls), reducing product lines (less literature), laying off staff (not that JW "fires" people or has increased disfellowshipping, but it's certainly consolidating falling numbers into fewer congregations and disbanding many foreign language groups, has ditched DOs, shed Bethelites for a while, and is reducing COs) and, if the directors have been involved in shady business practice, it also has to start facing lawsuits and paying out costs, all of which drive it to find more money. As a result, the "product" that's left on the shelves for potential "customers" looks less and less attractive.

That's about where the Org seems to be now.

13

A lot of bodies

by Elena in

i have this memory of a gb member once saying that there would be a lot of bodies to be buried after armageddon.. does anyone else remember who said it?.

it was probably in the last decade or so.

ive been trying to find the video i’m sure it was on lloyd evens and all the other similar channels when it was said.. i can’t remember which gb member said it.

Journeyman

I have this memory of a GB member once saying that there would be a lot of bodies to be buried after Armageddon.

Yeah, that's definitely an AMIII statement. Due to his past as a military surgeon, he was often quite graphic about the results of war - too much so - but it does need to be recognised by those talking about Armageddon.

The rest of the GB have been reluctant to talk about the realities of it, even though the Bible is very honest about the real aftermath of battle, from the days of the Israelites onwards.

It's that kind of intellectual dishonesty that bothers me about the modern GB and that, if Armageddon were ever to happen, means they are not preparing the R&F correctly for what is to come.

Fortunately, if Armageddon is going to come as they say, they won't be the ones in charge (despite what they think).