Posts by XJWBill

44

Contact Equals Suicide?

by patio34 in

jw
friends

didn't find an appropriate forum for this unique perspective:.

'our planet spends billions on searching for extraterrestrial life.

have they never thought seriously about the question: what would happen if we found it, or if it found us.

XJWBill

Hiya, Jim! As one fellow slave to another, I support your right to believe whatever seems good to you. Hooray for freedom, intellectual and otherwise!

However, the wording of your post, specifically "no doubt . . . in fact . . . unquestionably . . . perhaps . . ." have a curiously familiar ring to them, when applied to a predicted future event about which we have no verifiable evidence at present. Catch my drift?

Also troubling to me is the implicit assumption that ALL members of an advanced society, human or otherwise, would share the benevolence of its most enlightened leaders. Does the word My Lai ring a bell for you?

And now, dear brother, that you have benefitted from my gracious removal of the speck in your eye--feel free to whale away at the beam in mine!

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

44

Contact Equals Suicide?

by patio34 in

jw
friends

didn't find an appropriate forum for this unique perspective:.

'our planet spends billions on searching for extraterrestrial life.

have they never thought seriously about the question: what would happen if we found it, or if it found us.

XJWBill

Hiya, Jim! As one fellow former slave to another, I fully support your right to believe whatever seems good to you. Hooray for freedom, intellectual and otherwise!

However, the wording of your post, specifically "no doubt . . . in fact . . . unquestionably . . . perhaps . . ." has a curiously familiar ring to it, when applied to a predicted future event about which we have no verifiable evidence at present. Catch my drift?

Also troubling to me is the implicit assumption that ALL members of an advanced society, human or otherwise, would share the benevolence of its most enlightened leaders. Does the word My Lai ring a bell for you?

The current popular myth that technological progress goes hand in hand with moral progress is simply untrue. Looks good in the movies, but can we depend on it? Was not Hitler's Germany very advanced, technologically, hmmm?

And now, dear brother, that you have benefitted from my gracious removal of the speck in your eye--feel free to whale away at the beam in mine!

Peace,

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

44

Contact Equals Suicide?

by patio34 in

jw
friends

didn't find an appropriate forum for this unique perspective:.

'our planet spends billions on searching for extraterrestrial life.

have they never thought seriously about the question: what would happen if we found it, or if it found us.

XJWBill

I agree wholeheartedly with the quote from Jared Diamond. The whole history of our planet shows that close contact between cultures leads to conflict, with the stronger dominating or enslaving the weaker.

Naively to assume that aliens advanced enough to cross the galaxies would automatically be peaceful, benevolent, and cuddly is, I'm afraid, a childish fantasy. The example of Atahualpa is decidely to the point here.

Exercising my privilege as a freed WT slave to be politically incorrect, I have always thought that the popular fascination with the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence is, at bottom, a religionless redirection of the hope for a Messiah, a deliverer, an all-powerful agent to save us from ourselves, individually and collectively.

But suppose these "saviors" turn out to be the intergalactic equivalent of 16th-century Spaniards?

I say, with Voltaire, that we should tend our own garden and not mess with the neighbors.

Besides, if the aliens did land in Times Square, it would only give the GB something new to mouth about, now wouldn't it . . . ?

Bill, who still believes if God wanted men to fly, He would have given us wings

62

The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality

by JanH in

jw
friends

there is a fallacy of logic that is so common that few people realize that it is, indeed, a fallacy of logic: the fallacy by appeal to nature.. one argument against homosexuality goes something like this:.

the natural use of the reproductive organs is obviously to make children.

using these organs in a way that cannot produce children is unnatural and thus ethically wrong.. .

XJWBill

A philosopher is among us!

Jan, thanks for your very lucid explication of the "natural" fallacy. I especially appreciated your point about its constant misuse in commercial advertising, which preys upon all of us.

This thread and the others on this topic lately have served to confirm what I have long intutively felt to be true: the reason the Bible writers condemn so harshly male homosexuality (with only one passing reference to female homosexuality) is really because of their own "aesthetic" aversion to it (and in the other case, possibly their privately tolerant attitude to the idea of two girls getting it on, as many guys have expressed on this board).

So its nice to hear a call for logical thinking on this subject. Would that the rest of your fellow straight men might hear it! And look in the mirror at their own sexual activities. Some rules are necessary, but there really are much more important things in the world to worry about than who's doing who. Thanks again, Jan.

To waiting: bless you. You have done your son the greatest kindness--real love--by accepting him just as he is. I remember I was terrified of coming out to my own mother, a non-JW and pretty open-minded lady. I was afraid, though, of being rejected and hated--even though I knew my mom would go to hell and back for me. When I finally did tell her, at age 24, her first reaction was "Why didn't you tell me sooner?" It made no difference to her--"You are part of me," she said. She just kept on loving me. Thanks, Mom--God bless and rest your soul.

Bill

"If I were hanged on the highest hill,
I know whose love would follow me still--
My mother's."--Robert Louis Stevenson

9

Martha Carter

by teejay in

jw
friends

from: from beginning to end: the rituals of our lives.

by robert fulgham.

she taught the students how to learn.

XJWBill

Todd, it depends on what kind of advice you are looking for. Teaching, like anything worth doing, is a hard job, not for the squeamish. Email me privately and I'll try to give you the dubious benefit of my enormous wisdom!?!

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

19

Question from a newly DF'd chick...

by praying_mantis in

jw
friends

hello again...now that i am officially a horrible, unrepentant sinner (in the eyes of a polyester slack wearing, mini van driving, anal retentive man whore), i have a question (actually several, but i will start with one!

) brace yourselves: it is about 1975!.

where in the wt was the "prophecy" made?

XJWBill

Outaservice--ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn, I shoulda kept up my Watchtower subscription!

Thanks for the "New Things Learned"!

Bill [8>]

P.S.--Does this mean I can count time on this board as FS hours?

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

10

Coming Out Experiences

by Preston in

jw
friends

hi, this is my first post so i would like to get some things off of my chest.

i recently had to leave my congregation after five years after deciding to take a proactive stance regarding my beliefs and the fact that i found it necessary to come out to the congregation regarding my queerness (i usually try to stay away from labels like straight or bi since i think they are deceptive).

i was very active in my congregation: i was a ministerial servant, i handled the accounts, and i performed a lot of other duties.

XJWBill

Howdy, Preston. I walked out when I was 21 in 1977, many long years ago. There's really nothing to tell about my "experience"--I just stopped going to meetings. And, not having any family in the Lie, nobody hounded me. My friends just gave me the cold shoulder and stopped calling or visiting or asking me over.

As soon as I did decide to leave, I felt like the weight of the world had been lifted off my shoulders. And I got on with my life.

It hasn't been a bed of roses, exactly, but I haven't looked back. Welcome to reality! Play safe and enjoy your life.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

23

Want to help my JW friend

by wannahelp in

jw
friends

i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.

in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.

but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.

XJWBill

Wannahelp, your concern for your friend is commendable. However, without questioning your sincerity, I do want to suggest that some of your concern might be a little unhealthy for both of you.

First of all, you don't say whether you are male or female, or how old you are. Please forgive me if I am wrong, but you do sound in some way a little "jealous" of this organization that your friend has devoted his life to.

Second, it does sound like you are extremely anxious to "fix" your friend. In my own life experience, it's always been a bad sign when that feeling crops up. I want to suggest that it may be a sign of the desire to control your friend rather than accept him--which is what real friendship is all about.

Friends allow friends the right to be wrong. Whether you think they are wrong about religion, politics, smoking, drinking, sex, marriage, hairstyles, or window treatments, a real friend, in my book, either agrees with you--or stays discreetly silent about it. (Of course, there are exceptions to this rule in extreme cases, like potential suicide or homicide.)

Third, it is an immutable law of human nature that you just can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped! In your account as written, I'm not sure I hear that this young man is desperately seeking a way out of his religion. I do seem to hear that YOU are desperately seeking a way to get him out of it.

The fact is, all our ex-JW bitching and griping aside, it is perfectly possible to live a long and happy life as a Witness, especially if one has many supportive friends and family in the organziation. It was good for me in many ways when I was in it--but I had to come to see for myself that my greater happiness lay elsewhere.

There are many worse ways to live than the JW's. You admit that your friend is "loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking, and honest." Is that really so bad?

As life rolls on, I find it more important to examine closely and sincerely MY OWN true motives than to be continually scrutinizing my friends.

One of the pleasures of life as a non-JW is relief from the feeling that I, personally, must save the world and everyone in it from taking the wrong course.

Perhaps I've read you all wrong, and if so, I apologize. These are just my thoughts; others may have better ones to offer. Love your friend and do as you please.

Bill

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

19

1975: Much ado about nothing?

by dutyfree in

jw
friends

many of the senior witnesses out there, i am sure will remember the spring/summer of 1975 and the amount of excitement that was in the air surrounding the anticipation of what the new year would bring.. i have no recollection of such events as i was still in short trousers and wearing a strange cap, but anyway.... fred franz, the vice president at the time gave many talks to 000's of people about how much everyone was looking forward to 1975 and the wonderful things it would bring... without making an explicit statement as such, but the implications were all there.

these talks actually began in about 1966. the anticipation grew too much for some people and many began to heed mr franz's advice about selling their property to live out the last months on the earth in the pioneer service.

he also encouraged the young people not to pursue a career but rather to be more active in "the truth".

XJWBill

Ditto to all the above. I started studying with the JW's in high school in 1970, after a friend sent me some literature. One of the very first things I was told was that there was absolutely no point in preparing for college, since the world was coming to an end in 1975! So I applied for no scholarships and took minimum-wage jobs after high school, which p.o.'d my non-JW parents no end--and rightly so.)

As Francoise says, "This prophecy wasn't presented in the nature of a suggestion, either. You HAD to believe it. It was not optional." Which we all did, like good little other sheep.

I could recount lots of conversations, too. Like the time I bought a couch in 1974 and discovered a minor defect. A friend remarked, "Oh, don't bother to complain to the store about it--the New System will be here next year, and then it won't matter." Or the friend who got a four-year-renewal driver's license in 1971, expecting never to have to renew it again. Or the sister, an otherwise very loving parent, who declined to get minor surgery to correct a daughter's disfigured finger, reasoning that "In a couple of years, Jehovah will heal her after Armageddon." Or the elder (with a wife and two teenagers to support) who quit his job in 1974, planning to pioneer and live on savings until the big kaboom, only a short time ahead. Etc., etc., etc.

It was NOT "just a rumor" as apparently the WTBTS is claiming now. True, they were cagey enough never to put it in writing as a definite assertion, but EVERYONE in the organization from top to bottom fully believed and expected Armageddon to arrive on schedule in '75. I know, I was there. And the GB and all their appointed representatives deliberately encouraged that expectation.

I heard the same explanation about Eve's creation date that Jim mentions above, in a Special Talk in December, 1974, for which our circuit rented a municipal auditorium for one day. So with that in mind, I personally wasn't too concerned when 1975 came and went with no Armageddon.

I walked away in 1977 not for that reason, but on account of my sexuality, despairing of ever having a "theocratic" outlet. However, as I write this, it dawns on me that perhaps the delayed apocalypse DID have an unconscious bearing on my decision to leave. It's all very long-ago now, but I'm sure that realizing Armageddon might be many, many years away added to that feeling of unhelpable despair.

Well, whatever. BTW, www.freeminds.org has more stories like these if you want to go look at them.

Peace, y'all.

Bill, who eventually did get some sheepskins

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)

9

Martha Carter

by teejay in

jw
friends

from: from beginning to end: the rituals of our lives.

by robert fulgham.

she taught the students how to learn.

XJWBill

THANKS TEEJAY--I needed that. Not as a template for funeral services, but as a template for life.

Bill, a teacher (dabbing his eyes).

"If we all loved one another as much as we say we love God, I reckon there wouldn't be as much meanness in the world as there is."--from the movie Resurrection (1979)