Posts by FreeWilly

20

A kindler, gentler, WTB&TS?

by FaithfulDoubter in

ok, i've looked 3 times now through the new study book: what the bible really teaches and i can't find 1 depection of armageddon in it.

(if i'm wrong, someone please point it out!

) is this the beginning of the society trying to create a more loving image?

The 7 times leading up to 1914...

by FaithfulDoubter in

ok, i've talked to a few witnesses about this.

a period when true worship was not really available.

this seems inconsitant to me because: .

FreeWilly

Hi Faithfuldoubter.

Faithfuldoubter: "How do JW's reconcile true worship occuring between 607 BCE and 1914 CE with it being the Gentile Times? "

I'm not sure if you've been given the correct understanding of the Gentile Times. It has more to do with there being a King on Earth rather than "True worship". The Society teaches that this is the time period that there has been no king representing Jehovah on Earth. According the the Watchtower Society's calculations, 607 BCE is when the Israelites lost their king. 1914 CE is when they say Jesus was enthoned. The period in between is called "the Gentile Times". They calculate the 7 Time periods mentioned in Nebuchadnezzars Dream (Daniel 4) to be 2520 years and plug that in with a date they say Israel lost their king. Thats how they come up with 1914.

However, these dates do not hold up to scutiny. You will not find any historical reference to Jerusalem being overthrown in 607 BCE. There is multiple lines of Archeological evidence proving that this actually happened in 586 BCE . For more background into this issue and the 607 BCE date I recommend this ARTICLE.

The Watchtower Society still clings to these dates because they are part of a pivotal calculation they have used to predict Armageddon. To relinquish them would be too embarrassing and undermine their claim of Divine communication.

I recommend you actually read the account in the Bible at Daniel 4. There Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream that disturbs him. However, Daniel tells us what this dream actually means (Daniel 4:18). Notice that the fulfillment of this dream has to do with Nebuchadnezar himself. There's no mention of a hidden, second meaning is there? Notice too that Jesus and his Apostles never mention a double meaning or hidden teaching regarding this account.

Faithfuldoubter: "Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations? "

No. In fact for most of the Bible's history there is no "Earthly organization".

From Adam to Moses we find no organization in the Bible. (2500 years)

After Moses the Israelites were divided into 12 autonomous tribes that each presided over their own lands.

After Jesus we find no organization sanctioned on Earth. ( 2000years) Instead Jesus refers to a heavenly, spiritual organization. (see John 14:6, 1 Cor 11:3 and 1 Tim 2:5)

Faithfuldoubter: "If affirmative to #2, what organization would one seeking true worship turn to between 200CE - 1914CE?"

JW's will always have trouble answering this question. First we know their founder did not develop his beliefs from an existing organization. We also know there were never any Christian goups that share the same beliefs JW's hold today. JW's teach that there was always an organization that handed down teachings since the time of the Apostles, but when questioned on it they never come up with any examples. --Odd huh?

Faithfuldoubter: "Why was that organization, if existant not used at 1914 to reestablish true worship, instead of a wholy new entity being formed?"

It never existed. As you question indicates, you recognize this teaching is just a facade. JW's insist on this teaching because they now teach that belonging to an organization, specifically their organization is necessary to avoid being killed at Armageddon. It's a fear tactic. Initially the Watchtower Society did not teach organizational affiliation was vital. It was many years later due to control minded leaders within the organization that the current insistance on membership became a steadfast rule.

Amazingly, their founder, Charles Taze Russell preached adamantly against organizational membership. Here's just one of many examples:

The Watchtower 9/15/1895 ---- "Beware of "organization." It is wholly unnecessary The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day."

For more examples click HERE

I hope that answers your questions.

-FW

20

(UN)Expected development

by InquiryMan in

part 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.

we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.

before we stopped, i served as an elder.

FreeWilly

Inquiryman,

Remember the proper prespective, YOU DON"T ANSWER TO ANYONE - YOU ARE NOT ASHAMED !

Your father seems to be approaching this like you're still a kid who's now in trouble. DO NOT reinforce that.

Be sure to convey to you father:

1) HE is about to wreck the family! - Why?

2) HE will have to live with the results.

3) You have been quietly fading for the benefit of the family.

Good Luck

-FW

25

Need some quick advice...

by sassafras in

jw
friends

my biweekly jdub visit is coming up here in a few hours, and i could use a bit of advice.... the lady knows i am a big time doubter, but she has some sort of personal mission to get my husband back into the truth (it makes me sick to write that) and get me in as well.

she comes by at the exact same time every two weeks to drop of the new wts, reads some scripture, asks how i'm doing, blah blah blah.. i'm pretty polite to her, but i'm ready to kick it up a notch.

any suggestions for something i could start with?

FreeWilly

Sass,

Here's one that requires almost no work on your part:

* Say "1914 isn't in the Bible yet you guys teach it - how come"? and pause. Let her fumble around to prove it's in the Bible.

* When she get's around to reading the "Tree Dream" in Daniel chapter 4 say this: "If you just keep reading, Daniel tells us what this dream really means." ( keep reading past the "Tree dream" to where Daniel says it applies to King Nebuchadnezzar)

* Then ask "Did Jesus and the Apostles ever teach about this" ?

Sit back, listen, and give that skeptical "Huh".

31

A Letter I Feel I Should Share.

by Apostanator in

jw
friends

there are many here who have been shunned or dis-owned by family members who are jehovah's witnesses.

the pain, hurt and agony over this treatment wreaks havock in our lives and at times to the point of being unbearable.

after much deliberation and thought i came to the conclusion that for me to be able to "move on" in my own life i needed to express my feelings and be heard on some level by my family.

FreeWilly

Great letter!

I don't stand for their silly games either. They like to feel like they are in control.

One comment. You said the WT was "deceptive and hypocritical". I always like to add "and preaches genocide". It seems to have that extra little kick I do so enjoy. What freaks....sad.

-FW

9

How does one deal with a JW at Christmas??

by Super_Becka in

ok, i'm looking for a little more advice.

it's christmas, i'm an exceptionally festive person (seriously, i start listening to christmas music the day after halloween, i'm not kidding, i love christmas!!

), and as anyone who's read my other topics and posts knows, i'm dating an unbaptized, inactive jw who hasn't been to the kh in forever but still completely and utterly despises christmas and all things associated with it (and other holidays, too, he just hates celebrations).. so the question is, how does one deal with this situation??

FreeWilly

Hey Becka,

I answered a similar question so I'll repeat it again here. Don't take it seriously. If you're BF does then throw him one of these zingers, and keep quiet.

* Do witnesses still teach all the animals fit into Noah's boat?

* How did the water cover mount everest?

* How did all of Noah's Kangaroo's make it to Australia?

* You really don't think everyone's gonna die cuz a talking snake told a naked lady to eat some fruit - dooo you? Throw one of them out there and just keep silent. Have some fun with it!

3

living with my elder stepdad over xmas

by ellderwho in

superbeckas post promted me to post this subject.

my parents are retiring to florida(gods waiting room) moms already down there, he's living with us here in newjersey till he offically retires.

lights, yard, tree, the whole nine.

FreeWilly

Hey E-who,

He might drop a few hints here and there. Maybe you can use his college education to your benefit. Like saying:

* Do witnesses still teach all the animals fit into Noah's boat?

* How did the water cover mount everest?

* How did all of Noah's Kangaroo's make it to Australia?

* You really don't think everyone's gonna die cuz a talking snake told a naked lady to eat some fruit - dooo you?

Throw one of them out there and just keep silent. Have some fun with it!

17

Question About Matthew 13:24

by lynnmelo in

jw
friends

as some of you may know (from my previous posts), i'm studying with the jw's (& have been for 2 years) but have decided not to be baptized after reading some of the information and links from this site.

however, i am supposed to be having one last book study to finish the worship the one true god book.

when i do this study, i'm considering being upfront with my bible study conductor, telling her some of my reasons for deciding not to become a jw.

FreeWilly

Great advice from Auldsoul!
If she insists on the "wheat and the weeds" then SAY (don't ask)

1) Russell did not learn his beliefs from a preexisting Faithful slave, he learned them from the Adventists who you say are false, so the idea that there was always an organization is just not true.

2) If there was wheat along with weeds, then you would be able to tell me who the wheat part of that illustration was. We have thousands of books and writings from the past 1900 years of Christian history, and you cannot point to a single person group or organization who held beliefs anything like what the Society teaches. "Where's the wheat !?"

3) Regading the annointed remnant, If they were the Faithful Slave who received insight from Jesus and Jehovah, then they would have know about the "New Light" regarding the revised understanding of "This Generation" in Mathew 24. Instead, the had to read about it in the Watchtower like everyone else.

Hint: If you make statements instead of asking questions, he/she must provide proof of their innaccuracy. If you ASK, then you are essentially open to any cockamamie answer they blurt out. SAY what you learned to be true, don't ASK.

26

The turning point of the apostate movement?

by undercover in

jw
friends

is it possible that this "big news" could actually create a division amongst active apostates who are fighting to disrupt the wts?.

it seems that there are two factions regarding the "big news": one is jumping for joy, ready to spread the news far and wide, hoping for lawsuits; the other has poo-pooed the whole thing as overblown nothingness.

for the most part up til now, it's been us(ex-jws) vs them(the wts).

FreeWilly

I just think people don't like getting their "chain jerked".

This was billed as news "bigger than Dateline, BBC, CBC, etc" which stirred no little anticipation. By that measure you'd expect to be important enough to make the evening news. A published legal essay, IMHO, will not rise to that level at all. Let's face it, the aforementioned programs devote air-time, money and research to items they feel will be significant to the general public. Will this rise to that level? We shall see, but I suspect it will not get near the attention the child abuse scandal did. I doubt we will be seeing this featured on any primetime news program. Nor do I suspect, will the average JW be impacted by this essay.

It is an interesting development.

It could lead to greater developments in the future.

But "Big News" it is not.

I do appreciate the efforts involved none-the-less.

-FW

40

A topic was started..........

by defd in

jw
friends

about me to tell me i need to do my research on the wtbts.

lady lee said: do your homework!

learn something about the organization you are so busy trying to defend.

FreeWilly

police services
road repairs and maintenance
fire services
public transit (I doubt the all have cars) and tickets would barely cover the cost
water
street lights
snow removal
street cleaning

I'll add a few more exemptions:

Capital gains taxes on their property and investments (BIG).
Income taxes on monthly cash and non-cash proceeds to workers
Fuel taxes
Donations (Tax free income for Brooklyn and a deductable for JW's)
City/state taxes

* Bethel (Brooklyn/Patterson?Wallkill) does still use Ambulatory services for emergencies, along with police, and fire.