Posts by FreeWilly

15

A JW refutation of birthday celebrations

by TheListener in

i found this while surfing the web.

it's from a website called touchstoneforum.

it's definitely a pro-jw website.

FreeWilly

You have to love the logic. Since two birthday celebrations in the Bible had bad things happening, it must be wrong.

That's called SUPERSTITION!

28

i am desperate to get the book coc into the hands of my daughter and her husband, just trying to find a way.. it got me thinking i wonder how many active jws could read that book and still stay in the org ?.

it had such an impact on my life and others i know.

i had never even heard of such a book.

FreeWilly

FM,

That is an interesting perspective. Basically you are saying that they are no better than any other religion. However, considering the WTS teaches these other religions deserve destruction due to their errors, why do yo even bother? Doesn't that put them in the same boat?

If it's family, I guess I can understand. However, if you are like most of us, I think those reasons will eventually fail to keep you from the inevitable. It's hard to "carry water" for someone else indefinetly. Either way, thanks for sharing.

-FW

19

What would you do?

by schne_belly in

hello my dear fellow jwd members, i need your in put....please.

since my husband i my recent fading process, we've received a few "love bombing" letters from some in our old congregation.. i've received 2 from an old "friend" whom i grew up with and went to school with.

we've drifted apart years ago, to the point where she wouldn't even look at me at the hall---she's a pionner, husband a ministerial servant.

FreeWilly

Schne,

First remember that your written response will be used to evaluate your "spiritual condition" - i.e. the basis of further actions taken against you. Does that bother you?

If you are not concerned by that, then by all means respond. After all, your "friend" is the real victim. Why not ask a few questions that will cause them to think? Besides, it will dispell the assumtion that you left because you desired worldly pleasures. JW's cannot even conceive the idea that there may be legitimate reasons to question their faith. What should you say? That's up to you, but I like to question the concept of a God that needs to exterminate 99.9% of his human creation because of an "issue of universal sovereignty" that is never even explained by anyone in the Bible! Surely God can't blame people for concluding a religion that falsely predicted doomsday numerous times is unreliable - can he?

31

What do I tell my mother?

by Confession in

the facts.... -3rd generation of a 4-generation witness family.

30 members of my family are in--including my mother, father, 3 siblings and their mates and children.

(other relatives too.

FreeWilly

Confession,

I'm 5 years into a situation nearly identical to yours. I can give you my opinion, for what it's worth. My approach was to initially limit how much information I gave them. I suspected they probably wouldn't share my epiphany about the Society and would not welcome the new information I learned. This, I would later learn, was indeed a correct assessment. When they would ask "How's your new congregation" I would say "great, they are all very nice, etc." I would even engage in conversations related to the Kingdom Hall etc. This kept everyone satisfied and unsuspecting for over a year and probably could have continued indefinitely. Once they came out to visit though the gig was up. The slow downward spiral started and all I could do was limit damage. At this point I was pretty clear on the direction of my life and not interested in placating anyone else. After being dependant on the Witness social structure for approval and direction it felt extremely liberating to come away with a life of my own design. Once their questions, guilt and condemnation started, I was done tip toeing around their backward belief system. Basically I began to realize that the parents I remember from my childhood (pre-JW) didn't exist any longer. They have been taken captive mentally and any relationship is conditional to their belief system. Once the "cat was out of the bag" my approach was to at least show them that a great deal of logic and reflection went into my change of heart. When they initially showed "concern" I told them I was doing allot of research, praying and "waiting on Jehovah" to clarify things. I also tried to present inconsistencies in the least confrontational manner possible and show the obvious implications of them without advocating an opinion. They are trained to automatically assume you have swayed due to (insert one) worldly/fleshly desires, laziness, materialism or *gasp* apostates. I found it amazing how they repeatedly defaulted to one of these in spite of lengthy, intelligent discussions where they conceded to many of my concerns. My "damage control" approach to my fade prolonged the inevitable. I think it preserved 2 good years and another marginal year with my family. Eventually though, they reverted to the mindset Watchtower demands of them. I really have no relationship with them to speak of anymore. I don't think I could have continued the rouse very much longer even if they never suspected my change of heart. I discovered that by coming out of the Witnesses, was no longer a slave to anyone's approval. Essentially the problem is theirs, not yours, yet they will probably never see it that way. In fact they will probably invent reasons for your departure to satisfy their own perplexity over it. As far as informing them, you may as well give it a try. I think the best way is to come across as undecided, yet concerned about particular issues. This at least allows them to consider the problem themselves without feeling threatened by you. However, keep in mind that this had a 0% success rate on all my encounters with folks still in. I hope this helps. Good luck, -FW

45

Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

by Quotes in

well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

FreeWilly

Bravo Quotes!

I had a very similar experience about a week ago. Since leaving the JW's I too have approached the Bible with a healthy bit of skepticism. Although my discussion with them was somewhat different, (I focused on the cruelty/injustice displayed in the OT conquest of the promised land), my treatment of the JW's was similar to yours. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/94645/1.ashx I was very respectful, yet "called them out" as whenever they made a giant logical leap, wild speculation or a dogmatic generalization. They too promised to return with answers. I believe these are precisely the areas that a JW needs to question if they have any chance of breaking through the thought-suppressive, indoctrination regimen that reinforces their mentality on a regular basis. I am genuinely curious how a JW would process - if pressed - some very confounding questions about the Bible. As long as you do not appear too intimately informed about them, they will entertain a conversation with you.

I know for myself, it was a single elementary question that led me out of the group - "was it God, or man directing them". Examining their history and beliefs with that question in mind was all it took!

Good job, I hope they return. My folks have not returned after one week. Oh well maybe soon.

-FW

44

World War III - Has It Started?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

the enemy is invisible.

there are no rules.

they wear no uniform.

FreeWilly

Oh brother,

The roots of modern terrorism lie entirely in Islamic extremism. Lets not glob any pet issues on to it shall we? The idea that big bad, wealthy, western countries have been exploiting poor third world countries and now are getting their just deserts is pure fantasy. While there are plenty in the world who despise G8 countries for those very reasons, these terrorists are not one of them. They are fairly vocal about their beliefs and justifications for terrorism - have you read what they believe?

38

Another letter from WBTS re: UN Scandal

by Gadget in

quite a while ago i mentioned to my parents about the un scandal but they didn't seem too interested, but when i called in the other day my mother mentioned it to me again.

they had a elder and his wife (family friends who i was previously very very close to) staying with them for the convention and discussed it with them.

the elders wife is a very strong personality and super-spiritual but when she heard of the scandal back in spring she had a huge problem with it.

FreeWilly

Gadget,

The best thing to do is let her connect-the-dots. I would just print some pages and highlight a few things that concern you. Mail them to her and ask her what she thinks of it.

Send her the UN's official reply to all the inquiries about the WTBTS connection. Get that here: http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/watchtower.pdf

Highlight these statements: "In October 2001, the Main Representative of the Watchtower Bible and TractSociety of New York to the United Nations, Giro Aulicino, requested termination of its association with DPI. Following this request, the DPI made a decision to disassociate the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York as of 9 October 2001"

"have the commitment and means to conduct effective information programmes about UN activities by publishing newsletters, bulletins and pamphlets, ....."

Then print and highlight the web page from the UN's website the STILL shows the Nov, 22 1998 Awake! was submitted to fill this requirement to "promote the UN". Ask her why that awake is on the UN website? Get that here: http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm

Then you can print her the newspaper article from the London Gaurdian that exposed their secret relationship which is dated "Monday October 8, 2001", coincidentally, one day before they terminated their association. Get that article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,565005,00.html

Lastly print the UN's reply regarding library access. It clearly shows how it has nothing to do with NGO status. Get that here: http://www.randytv.com/secret/emailNGO.htm

Just send them and ask her impression of it - nothing more. Nothing like having proof staring you right in the face!

19

Hey I talked to a Dub at the door today!

by FreeWilly in

jw
friends

finally, the dubs pried themselves away from the coffee shop this morning and 'worked' my neighborhood.

i saw them coming so i had to decide what topic to discuss.

well after the intro, i decided to explain, that yes i have read the bible, and i feel the god portrayed in it is very brutal and cruel to his creation.

FreeWilly

Thanks for the research buster,

I think many Dubs just assume that all those scriptures must mean its true, and never bother to research it.

Sword of Jah, good job posting their info. Isn't it amazing how sanitized the Society makes genocide sound ?

The issue involved, however, is clearly that of whether God’s sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants is acknowledged or not.

Really? Exactly where in the Bible does it say this issue was before the Caananites, and one that they apparently rejected? They were never approached with any issues that Jah wanted them to resolve. They simply existed, that was their crime. And you can hardly blame people for have different beliefs when you specifically exclude them from you own.

Oh, and I love this:

He had deeded over the right of tenure of the land of Canaan to the ‘seed of Abraham,’ doing so by an oath-bound covenant. (Ge 12:5-7; 15:17-21; compare De 32:8; Ac 17:26.) But more than a mere eviction or dispossessing of the existing tenants of that land was purposed by God. His right to act as "Judge of all the earth" (Ge 18:25) and to decree the sentence of capital punishment upon those found meriting it, as well as his right to implement and enforce the execution of such decree, was also involved.

I bet the Nazi's put similar spin on their solution to "the Jewish question". What a creepy use of language to justify the atrocity.

I hope they bring this book out!

19

Hey I talked to a Dub at the door today!

by FreeWilly in

jw
friends

finally, the dubs pried themselves away from the coffee shop this morning and 'worked' my neighborhood.

i saw them coming so i had to decide what topic to discuss.

well after the intro, i decided to explain, that yes i have read the bible, and i feel the god portrayed in it is very brutal and cruel to his creation.

FreeWilly

Paduan: `It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'; whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you. ....it is a land like no other, and as said above, and below, it is not something that is earned.

I understand the argument. However, the bottom line is the Canaanites simply followed a different religious belief and were unfortunate enough to live on property the Israelites wanted . There was never any attempt to reform their ways, or try in any way to show them 'righteousness'. It was entirely about Real Estate . Why? Because the entire earth held beliefs different from the Israelites, yet there was no campaign to 'clean' other areas. Why weren't others slaughtered by the Israelites? Simple, they weren't on the property, the Canaanites were. Their crime was that they were residents, as evidenced by the account of the Gibeonites. Desperate, they tricked the Israelites into thinking they weren't from the promised land, so that they would be spared. It worked. Had they told them they actual lived there, they would have been slaughtered. So despite their having different beliefs, their ploy to convince the Israelites that they weren't residents is what spared them.

How f*#king cruel is that? This God makes a covenant with ONLY the Israelites, specifically excluding other nations (Ex 19:5). He then punishes all who do not follow what he taught only the Israelites.

If this were righteous then I supposed he would have every reason to destroy the Chinese too since they had 'wicked' practices and following Pagan Gods.

Any while it is true that those fortunate enough to gain acceptance by the Israelites (Rahab etc ) were allowed to blend in as proselytes, it's a stretch to say that there was this invitation extended to all nations. Phooey!

Blonde: Great point about the virgins... I'll have to remember that one.

19

Hey I talked to a Dub at the door today!

by FreeWilly in

jw
friends

finally, the dubs pried themselves away from the coffee shop this morning and 'worked' my neighborhood.

i saw them coming so i had to decide what topic to discuss.

well after the intro, i decided to explain, that yes i have read the bible, and i feel the god portrayed in it is very brutal and cruel to his creation.

FreeWilly

Finally, the Dubs pried themselves away from the coffee shop this morning and 'worked' my neighborhood. I saw them coming so I had to decide what topic to discuss. Well after the intro, I decided to explain, that yes I have read the Bible, and I feel the God portrayed in it is very brutal and cruel to his creation. She asked why and I told her I felt that God's instruction to attack the Caananites was due to a promis he made to Abraham over Real estate. What did the Caananites do to them? She explained that when people do not follow god and worship Pagan Gods, Jah punishes them. I replied, but that's not why the Bible says they should be killed. The Caananites were attacked because of a promise (unbeknown to them), not because they disobeyed. Besides, God never tried to convert them to Judaism or reform them in any way, he just wanted them out of the way. She fumbled and said she'd have to do more research and would return with her hubby.

It ought to be interesting.

Any ideas ?