Posts by Leolaia

29

Seven times

by Jeffro in

the book of daniel was almost certainly written in the 2nd century bce, probably based on some historical accounts mixed with jewish folklore.

with that in mind, and given that there isn't any evidence that nebuchadnezzar went insane for seven 'times', is there any other period from which the reference to "seven times" at daniel 4:13-17 may be derived?.

i continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look!

Leolaia

I certainly did not mean to cause offense, and so I apologize for my wording. When I read:

For how long was Jerusalem desolate (or For how long was the 'tree' in the dream banded)?

It certainly sounded like you were comparing (even conditionally) the period of Jerusalem being desolate after being destroyed in 587 BC with the banding of the tree in the vision, which is why I made the comparison with the JW interpretation, which makes a similar interpretation of the banding of the tree: extending something that the text only has pertaining to the king, and making it pertain in some way to Judah or Jerusalem. I certainly did not mean to insult you and I retract my preceding comment.

29

Seven times

by Jeffro in

the book of daniel was almost certainly written in the 2nd century bce, probably based on some historical accounts mixed with jewish folklore.

with that in mind, and given that there isn't any evidence that nebuchadnezzar went insane for seven 'times', is there any other period from which the reference to "seven times" at daniel 4:13-17 may be derived?.

i continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look!

Leolaia

Jeffro....I'm afraid you are still looking at the Danielic text through a Watchtower lens. The tree in the vision has nothing to do with the Judah or Jerusalem; the seven times do not pertain to a period during which the kingdom of Judah is cut down. The tree pertains to Nebuchadnezzar and his pride (the metaphor was drawn from Ezekiel 31, where the prideful Pharaoh is likened to a Lebanon cedar that "towered high and set its top within the clouds, v. 10), and Daniel within the story explicitly explains the symbolism of the vision. The seven times, meanwhile, are to be understood as seven years; the half of that duration (3 1/2 times) in Daniel 7:25 is equated to a "half week" (3 1/2 years) in ch. 9 and 1,290 days (also 3 1/2 years) in ch. 12. The OG thus renders the phrase as "seven years". I recall that Ginsberg claimed that this was a calque from Greek, where khronos "time" could be used to mean "year" (see Liddell and Scott, khronos entry A.2c). Leviticus 26:27-35 is however relevant to the seventy weeks oracle in ch. 9; it is the "curse" in the Law mentioned in Daniel's prayer and the rationale by which Gabriel multiplies Jeremiah's 70 years for the desolation of Jerusalem into a total duration of 490 years (culminating in Antiochus IV Epiphanes' defiling of the Temple).

Also, it doesn't matter whether there is any evidence that Nebuchadnezzar was incapacitated for seven years, for it is fairly clear that the story originally did not concern Nebuchadnezzar; it was the less-famous Nabonidus who was the original figure in the story. The Aramaic Prayer of Nabonidus in the Dead Sea Scrolls tells a very similar story concerning the last king of Babylon:

4QPrNab: "Words of the pr[ay]er which Nabonidus, king of the la[nd of Baby]lon, the [great] king, prayed [when he was afflicted] by a malignant inflammation, by decree of the G[od Most Hi]gh, in Teiman. [I, Nabonidus,] was afflicted [by a malignant inflammation] for seven years, and was banished far from men, [until I prayed to the God Most High] and an exorcist forgave my sin. He was a Jew fr[om the exiles, who said to me:], 'Make a proclamation in writing, so that glory, exal[tation and hono]ur be given to the name of [the] G[od Most High'. And I wrote as follows: 'When] I was afflicted by a ma[lignant] inflammation […] in Teiman, [by decree of the God Most High,] I prayed for seven years [to all] the gods of silver and gold, [of bronze and iron,] of wood, of stone and of clay, because [I thoug]ht that t[hey were] gods […]' "

This story has Nabonidus banished far from men because of an affliction, for the same duration of time (seven years), and it was an exiled Jew practiced in the mantic arts who was able to get him to recognize the error of his ways. The parallels however are even more extensive, for ch. 4 similarly has the king speak in the first person and write a proclamation praising God (see v. 1-3 MT and v. 34β OG, which both describe the proclamation that Nebuchadnezzar makes to glorify God). There are other similarities with the Aramaic portion of Daniel; for instance Belshazzar in ch. 5 praises "the gods of gold and silver, bronze and iron, wood and stone" (v. 4). It is clear also that the Nabonidus story is the more original one, since it more closely matches Neo-Babylonian history: It was Nabonidus who left Babylon and dwelled in the desert at Teima for many years. The Danielic story is dependent on anti-Nabonidus propaganda that depicted the derrelict king as irresponsible, ignominious, and insane. Note also that 4QPrNab is intermediate between earlier Babylonian sources about Nabonidus and the biblical story about Nebuchadnezzar. 4QPrNab reduces the duration from ten years to seven, which is then followed by Daniel. The originally anonymous Jew in 4QPrNab was subsequently identified with Daniel in ch. 4. The OG version of Daniel 4, which is thought by some scholars to derive from an older recension of the tales than what is found in the biblical book (ch. 4-6 OG dating to the middle of the third century BC), is also closer to 4QPrNab than the second-century BC Aramaic text. Nebuchadnezzar is said to be driven to the desert during his time of insanity (v. 22 OG), and we read in v. 28 OG: "You are told, King Nebuchadnezzar, that the kingdom of Babylon has been taken away from you and given to another, to a despised man in your household". This appears to be a reminiscence of Belshazzar, Nabonidus' son who was entrusted the kingship during the time of Nabonidus' absence. The confusion between Nabonidus and Nebuchadnezzar was common in the Hellenistic period; Herodotus for instance referred to Nebuchadnezzar as Labynetus I and his successor was Labynetus II (= Nabonidus), the last king of Babylon.

13

The "new" scrolls are abandoned - No explanation given!

by The Searcher in

the september 1st watchtower 2012, page 16, discards very quietly a false teaching first invented in 1985, and repeated 4 times since - "new scrolls" - interpolating revelation 20:12. here is what it says;.

"the resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in revelation chapter 20 are revealed.

(romans 6:7) among those who will come back to life and have the opportunity to learn about god are "both the righteous and the unrighteous," said the apostle paul.

Leolaia

The resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of what they did before they died, but on what they do when the contents of the "scrolls" mentioned in Revelation chapter 20 are revealed.

That completely distorts what the passage itself says. The dead are judged PRECISELY on the basis of what they did before they died: "the dead were judged on the basis of what was recorded in the books, according to their deeds" (20:12; translation by Aune). The books are plainly a record of the persons' erga "deeds". This is how the judgment scene plays out in earlier Jewish apocalypses that the author of Revelation was indebted to:

"I looked at everything on the heavenly tablets and I read everything that was written, and I learned everything. And I read the book and everything that was written in it, all the deeds of men and all the sons of flesh that will be upon the earth until the generations of eternity....Blessed is the man who dies righteous and pious, concerning whom no book of iniquity has been written, and against whom no guilt will be found" (1 Enoch 81:2-4), "In a book it was written how many of them he was destroying...And thus in the vision I saw that one who was writing ... and was showing that whole book to the Lord of the sheep, everything they had done, and everything that each one of them had taken away, and everything that they had handed over to destruction. And the book was read in the presence of the Lord of the sheep, and he took the book from his hand and read it and set it down" (89:70-71), "And I looked at that man who wrote the book at the word of the Lord, until he opened the book of the destruction that those last twelve shepherds worked, and he showed before the Lord of the sheep that they had destroyed more than those before them" (90:17), "What will you do, O sinners, and where will you flee on that day of judgment .... to you the days of your judgment will come. All the words of your lawless deeds will be read out before the Great Holy One, and your face will be put to shame, and then he will remove all the deeds that partook in lawlessness" (97:3-6), "I swear to you, sinners, by the Great Holy One, that all your evil deeds are revealed in heaven, and you will have no unrighteous deed that is hidden. Do not suppose to yourself nor say in your heart, that they do not know nor are your unrighteous deeds seen in heaven, nor are they written down before the Most High. Henceforth know that all your unrighteous deeds are written down day by day, until the day of your judgment" (98:4-8), "Then be prepared, O unrighteous, and present your petitions as a reminder, offer them as a testimony before the angels, that they may bring in the sins of the unrighteous before the Most High as a reminder" (99:3), "Woe to you, unrighteous, when you afflict the righteous on a day of hard anguish, and burn them in fire; for you will be recompensed according to your deeds...Woe to you, all you sinners, because of the words of your mouth and the deeds of your hands, for you have strayed from the holy deeds, in the heat of a blazing fire you will burn. And now know that from the angels inquiry will be made into your deeds in heaven" (100:7, 9-10), "I have read the tablets of heaven, and I have seen the writing of what must be, and I know the things that are written in them and inscribed about you .... Woe to you, dead sinners, when you die in your sinful wealth ... They have died in splendor, and judgment was not executed on them in their life. Know that down to Sheol they will lead your souls, and there they will be in a great distress, and in darkness and in a snare and in a flaming fire. Into great judgment your souls will enter, and the great judgment will be for all the generations of eternity" (102:2, 5-8), "Do not say, O sinners, 'None of our sins will be searched out and written down,' all your sins are being written down day by day" (104:7),"And Enoch was taken from the children of men and we led him to the garden of Eden for greatness and honor. And behold he is there writing condemnation and judgment of the world, and all of the evils of the children of men .... he was put there for a sign and so that he might bear witness against all the children of men so that he might relate all of the deeds of the generations until the day of judgment" (Jubilees 4:23-24), "Thus a blessing and righteousness will be written on high as a testimony for him in the heavenly tablets before the God of all. And we will remember for a thousand generations the righteousness which a man did during his life in all of the appointed times of the year. And it will be written on high and it will come to him and his descendents after him. And he will be written down as a friend and as a righteous one in the heavenly tablets....But if they transgress and act in all the ways of defilement, they will be recorded in the heavenly tablets as enemies, and they would be blotted out of the book of life" (30:19-20, 22), "And you, understanding one, inherit your reward in the remembrance of [...]. Engraved is your portion and ordained is all the punishment, for engraved is that which is ordained by God against all the [...] of the sons of Seth, and a book of remembrance is written in his presence for those who keep his word. And this is the vision of meditation and a book of remembrance. And he will give it as an inheritance to Enosh together with a spiritual people, for according to the pattern of the holy ones is his fashioning, but he did not give meditation as a witness to the spirit of flesh, for he does not know the difference between good and evil according to the judgment of its spirit" (4Q417 1 1:14-17), "Everything has been engraved before you with the stylus of remembrance for all the incessant periods and the cycles of the number of everlasting years in all their predetermined times, and they will not be hidden, and will not be lacking from before you. How will a man count his sin? How will he defend his iniquities?" (1QH 9:23-26), "There is no moment in which man's works can be concealed, because they are written on the heart in the Lord's sight. And the Spirit of Truth testifies to all things and brings all accusations. He who has sinned is consumed in his heart and cannot raise his head to face his judge" (Testament of Judah 20:4-5),"These are the angels of the Lord Almighty. They write down all the good deeds of the righteous upon their manuscript as they watch at the gate of heaven. And I take them from their hands and bring them up before the Lord Almighty, he writes their name in the Book of the Living. Also the angels of the accuser who is upon the earth, they also write down all the sins of men upon their manuscript" (Apocalypse of Zephaniah 4:6-9), "The wondrous man who sat on the throne was the one who judged and sentenced the souls. The two angels on the right and on the left recorded. The one on the right recorded righteous deeds while the one on the left recorded sins....And the judge told on of the angels who served him, 'Open for me this book and find for me the sins of this soul' " (Testament of Abraham 12:11-17), "Behold, days are coming and the books will be opened in which are written the sins of all those who have sinned" (2 Baruch 24:1).

This is the background to the identical reference in Revelation 20:12-13 to books being opened and the dead being judged according to their deeds as written in the books. The same is background to other references to judgment of the dead in the NT. When Jesus says that "it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town" (Matthew 10:15), he is talking about judgment for the deeds that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah had formerly committed. Similarly he says "The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah" (Matthew 12:41). There are references to the disciples' names being already "written in heaven" in Luke 10:20, Hebrews 12:23, and Philippians 4:3 (written in the "book of life"). Paul refers to the dead being judged according to their former deeds: " We make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:9-10). Concerning the day of judgment, 2 Peter writes that "the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare" (3:10).

25

Ryanair CEO: 'Stupid' Passengers Deserve Fees

by VM44 in

ryanair ceo: 'stupid' passengers deserve feespublished: friday, 7 sep 2012 | 4:55 pm et .

do you print your boarding pass at home before arriving at the airport?

if you don't, ryanair ceo michael o'leary thinks you're "stupid.".

Leolaia

Contited is just as bad. In two years, they managed to gut almost every service that benefited passengers.

41

"Our Reader's Ask" November 2012 Public WT

by dontplaceliterature in

jw
friends

has anyone seen this?

it's rich.

it's too bad that this will blow right over the heads of jehovah's witnesses.

Leolaia

Complete and utter "war is peace" doubletalk. Here the Society tells us to not be "gullible or naive", don't be "mentally lazy", it is "foolish to accept an idea as true without checking the facts", we need to use our "power of reason", to "reason on evidence and reach sound conclusions that are based on facts", and not just believe because someone in authority (like the apostle Paul) tells them so. Cool. But they also say elsewhere to "fight against independent thinking", that it is prideful to "get to thinking that we know better than the organization" (the presumed authority here), that those who do so "rebel" against the organization and against God, that when the organization changes what is taught we should "rejoice" over the refinements rather than question them, that it is improper to "pursue an independent group study of biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation" or to "explore scientific subjects related to the Bible", and that instead, one should simply read the publications of the Watchtower Society if one wants to do "extra Bible study and research".

The net effect is this: It is only valid to thinking ability and "power of reason" if you already accept what we say as true; otherwise if you disagree you make yourself independent and a rebel against the organization. It is foolish to accept an idea as true without checking the facts unless it is one of our own ideas, in which case you better agree with what we say or else!

41

Disturbing WT quotes

by Christ Alone in

i wanted to start a thread about the most disturbing quotes that you all have found in watchtower publications.

i just came across this one when responding to another thread.

i'm sure there are many more disturbing quotes out there.

Leolaia

First:

*** w96 10/15 p. 32 "Jehovah Answered My Prayers!" ***

Consider, for example, a boy named Joel. He symbolized his dedication to Jehovah and was baptized at nine years of age.
*** w95 1/1 p. 24 “Out of the Mouth of Babes” ***

During her six years of elementary school, Ayumi arranged for 13 Bible studies. She was baptized while in the fourth grade, and one of her friends with whom she had studied was baptized in the sixth grade.
*** yb02 p. 110 Curaçao ***

In Bonaire, six-year-old Renzo was invited to the Kingdom Hall and enjoyed it very much. A Bible study was started with him, and from then on he refused to go to the Catholic church....Subsequently, Renzo’s father and mother along with one of Renzo’s Bible students were baptized. Renzo, now eight years old, was baptized at a circuit assembly in Bonaire.

Add to that this:

"When a baptized minor becomes involved in wrongdoing that threatens the cleanness of the congregation, the assigned committee should meet with such individual just as they would with any other member of the congregation" (Pay Attention to Yourself and to All the Flock, p. 98)

44

Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?

by VM44 in

a gilead student from thailand.

a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.

staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.

Leolaia

That person is not our suicide victim....it is Brother Chantraboon:

*** yb91 pp. 230-231 Thailand ***

Among the 103 students of the 31st class of Gilead, whose graduation exercises took place in 1958 during the memorable Divine Will International Assembly in Yankee Stadium, New York, were two pioneers from Thailand—Brother Bantoeng Chantraboon and Sister Buakhieo Nantha. Brother Bantoeng had been appointed circuit overseer in 1956. He still serves as a special pioneer in the north of Thailand.

Those were the only two Gilead-bound passengers on that ship; so I am doubtful that the suicide victim was a student of that particular Gilead class, unless a third Thai student came on another ship. It seems more promising to look for passengers arriving in 1956 to see if there were two Gilead-bound passengers from Thailand. Still looking though. I'm searching for all people from Thailand born in the 1930s entering into the US through Hawaii between 1956 and 1958. About 350 names on the list....most so far seem to be university students.

44

Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?

by VM44 in

a gilead student from thailand.

a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.

staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.

Leolaia

Bats in the Belfry.....Ohh nice find! So Boakheo Nantah was enroute to the US on 27 Dec 1957 and departed the US on 17 Sep 1958. That helps firm up the dates somewhat.

Notice that these records are for ocean liners: the S. S. President Wilson and the S. S. President Cleveland. The story has the girl's return voyage on a merchant vessel. That is a broader class that includes passenger-carrying freighters. If Knorr was looking for the cheapest travel, it could have been a freighter.

Here is Nantah's arrival listing:

It is possible that a second person traveled with Boakheo Nantah on the trip TO Bethel and Gilead.

I am checking now.

ETA: I found Nantah's traveling companion, a second person from Thailand on the same ship:

59

What Did You Do As A Witness That Could Have Gotten You Into Trouble Had The Elders Ever Known About It?

by minimus in

jw
friends

my elder buddy and i would frequent strip clubs when we wanted to.. a few friends knew i enjoyed clubbing and music concerts and i seldom ever spoke of my private social life to others.. i know many jws, including elders, that drank excessively but that wasn't considered too big a deal..

Leolaia

Well, when I watched him I was only a teen, and was something of a wannabe Watchtower apologist, so I mainly watched to scoff at what he was saying.

I'm pretty sure my mom watched with me. I think I even talked about Ankerberg with some of the other people in my congregation.

I was pretty dumb as a kid. One of my friends at school invited me to her birthday party and I wrote her a six-page typed out thesis on why I cannot go and why birthdays are wrong. She was a born again Christian and was so shaken by what I wrote (thinking maybe she shouldn't be celebrating her own birthday), that she had her pastor read it through. It was all the regular standard JW arguments; its just that I wrote it far more persuasively than the Society ever could.

59

What Did You Do As A Witness That Could Have Gotten You Into Trouble Had The Elders Ever Known About It?

by minimus in

jw
friends

my elder buddy and i would frequent strip clubs when we wanted to.. a few friends knew i enjoyed clubbing and music concerts and i seldom ever spoke of my private social life to others.. i know many jws, including elders, that drank excessively but that wasn't considered too big a deal..

Leolaia

I watched John Ankerberg.