Posts by Leolaia

54

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF!?!?!?!

by Cagefighter in

dead people raided jerusalem during the cruxifiction?

how have i never heard this before?

why do i suspect the nwt completely leaves this event out?.

Leolaia

Leolaia- What about the posibility that this was a "grammar error" by one of the original authors? When do the text(s) used come from? I am sure if someone translated my posts here into German or Spanish 2000 years from now there would be many spelling and gramatical errors that might intially seem confusing, right?

Cagefighter....Well, this was composed in Greek, and the language isn't confusing to read at all, other than the minor issue of the participle having masculine gender as I mentioned earlier in this thread. This is a minor issue because this is a rather common thing with neuter sòma "body":

Matthew 14:12: "John's disciples came and took his body (neut.) and buried him (masc.), and they went and reported to Jesus" (the original text in Mark 6:29 has neuter instead). Matthew 27:52-53: " The tombs were opened, and many bodies (neut.) of the saints (masc.) who had fallen asleep (masc.) were raised, and coming out (masc.) of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many".
Mark 15:45-46: " And ascertaining this from the centurion, he granted the body (neut.) to Joseph, and he bought fine linen, and took him (masc.) down, and wrapped him (masc.) in the linen, and laid him (masc.) in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb ".

It is the gloss that makes the pericope hard to understand, as Calvin pointed out, it would make the resurrected dead wait in their tombs for a day and a half before leaving them, which is pretty bizarre. But that is the kind of thing that happens with redaction. I am reminded of the awkward gloss in Genesis 6:4: " The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown". This gloss is clearly aimed at linking the antediluvian description of the Nephilim to those mentioned as living in Canaan at the time of the Conquest. This introduces an exegetical problem since the Flood was elsewhere described as wiping out all flesh on the earth and so there is no explanation given for how there were Nephilim living in the land later on.

tootired....I think the simplest explanation is that the "zombie" story was originally associated with the resurrection of Jesus. It is part of the descensus ad inferus tradition that has Jesus release a host of captives from Hades at the time between his death and resurrection. The resurrection of this group would thus not have preceded Jesus' death. The Gospel of Peter draws on this tradition, with the apparition of the talking cross representing those who slept to whom Jesus had preached. This accompanies Jesus at the moment he leaves the tomb. The centurion thus makes his confession on Easter Sunday, not at the moment of Jesus' death. Matthew revises Mark in a way that does not actually describe Jesus' resurrection unlike the Gospel of Peter, but he still wants to incorporate part of this tradition into the narrative. He thus has two earthquakes in his passion narrative; one at the moment of Jesus' death and the other at the moment of the resurrection....both are introduced elements not found in Mark. Since there is no narrative of Jesus' resurrection, it seems like the author moved the "zombie story" back from Sunday to Friday; the confession of the centurion is also moved back from Sunday to Friday because that is when the centurion makes his confession in Mark. This however is problematic because it makes the resurrection of the saints occur prior to Jesus' descent to Hades and prior to Jesus' own resurrection. Hence the gloss which awkwardly tries to smooth over this problem.

54

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF!?!?!?!

by Cagefighter in

dead people raided jerusalem during the cruxifiction?

how have i never heard this before?

why do i suspect the nwt completely leaves this event out?.

Leolaia

Bobcat....Again the problem there is that the gloss makes the centurion react on Friday to something (ta genomena) that didn't happen until Sunday. And indeed it takes a lot of reworking to achieve that particular reading. The NWT reading forces the reference to shift from those buried in the tombs to some mysterious other group of "persons coming out from among the memorial tombs". This is wrong on two counts. The NWT seems to take the aorist nominative participle as substantival (as "those having come out from the tombs") that then functions as the subject for the two active verbs in the next clause, but the participle is non-articular and there isn't any other nominative case noun in the same clause that it agrees with. It is rather a typical adverbial participle (always non-articular) that has a temporal function, e.g. "after they came out of the tombs they entered into the city and appeared to many". Even if it is defensible to take the participle as substantival, that is no reason to change the reference to some other group. "Those having come out from the tombs" would have to be those already inside tombs, and the previous verse already mentioned a specific group inside the tombs: the saints who are bodily raised. These are the ones who would then logically come out of the tombs. There is no other group mentioned in v. 52 that was already inside the tombs. The NWT muddies this further by referring to persons coming out from "among" the tombs, as if these were people walking through a cemetary who then leave the cemetary. The wording instead is of persons exiting the tombs themselves. And then there is the matter with the parentheses which separates the event of persons leaving the tombs and entering into the city from the "appearing to many" at the end of v. 53. There is another switch of reference here, with this verb (enephanisthèsan) no longer having reference to those entering the city but those in the tombs (and still in the tombs) mentioned in v. 52. This despite the fact that the most natural reading is that those who enter into a city would be seen by many (in the city).

It is clear that the NWT rendering reflects harmonistic concerns with other texts, rather than what the passage says on its own terms. The Society is explicit about this in an article explaining how this passage was rendered in the NWT: "The way each translator would therefore render such texts would depend upon his understanding of the rest of the Scriptures. The Scriptural facts above set out dictate how they must be rendered to be consistent with the rest of the Bible" (1 January 1961 Watchtower, p. 30). Here concern for avoiding a contradiction with other scriptures results in a translation that overrides what in fact is stated in the pericope. This concern takes precedence over the actual wording and phrasing and concepts found in the passage being translated.

30

The new, new iPad ... will the iSheeple feel 'had'?

by Simon in

so apple just released the new new ipad ... almost 2x the performance in cpu, gpu, wifi, lte etc.... makes me wonder, is that the reason that the last ipad didn't get a number?

they must have known and already been working on this version as the 'proper' one but some pieces of tech weren't ready so the last one was a stop-gap release.

if so, i wonder how the isheeple will react once they wise up?

Leolaia

I got an iPad instead of the others for one main reason: the 64GB storage. The only other contender is the Galaxy which accepts microSDHC, but adding a 32GB card would only equal the iPad (unless of course I get a 64GB card). The new new iPad doesn't increase storage, so I think I am not going to be bothered by the new upgrade, for what I'm using it for. The other reason is to give me access to Apple apps.

60

I know very few JW window washers and cleaners

by MC RubberMallet in

maybe these occupations are quoted to make a point, but it loses meaning when maybe 1% of brothers i know actually has these as jobs..

Leolaia

This isn't some apostate generalization; it was kind of an in-joke in my congregation about that profession. I don't think it was meant to be taken entirely seriously, of course its an exaggeration, but there was kind of a point to it for it to have its humorous effect. I remember well-off brothers with well-paying jobs joking about being window washers. So it was clearly a "meme" within the JWs, going back to the 70s. I heard that window washing thing for years and years.....from other JWs.

25

One Silly Little Comma = WT Idiocy

by Farkel in

one would think that the god of gods, the creator of everything who wanted to give we puny little humans a handbook for salvation(tm), would make sure that handbook remained authentic.. one who thinks that way would be wrong.. since punctuation is critical to convey exact meanings, i find it strange that the god of gods would pick a written language for his handbook that has no punctuation!

oh, wait!

he also picked another language for that book that had no written vowels!

Leolaia

I commented on Acts 20:26 in the other thread. This is an example of the Deuteronomistic introductory formulae and does not parallel the solemn expression in Luke 23:43. We are dealing with two distinct expressions:

(1) *(amèn (amèn)) + verbs of testifying and commanding (e.g. diamarturomai)|*legein + "to you/your ears" + "today" (the Deuteronomistic formulae)
(2) (amèn (amèn)) + legein|*verbs of testifying and commanding + "to you" (the solemnity formula in the gospels)

The addition of "today" in (1) is nowhere a part of (2) outside of Luke 23:43, in 70+ instances of the expression. The addition of amèn (amèn) is nowhere a part of the Deuteronomistic formulae. The verbs are different; legein does not occur in the OT expressions. So the formulae are quite distinct.

10

What evidence is used by Theologies to prove that Adam was the first man?

by jam in

jw
friends

this may have been covered here, if so iam sorry.. other then the bible, what evidence do they use?.

i am waiting for the minister to show me proof.

i told him.

Leolaia

Adam is not introduced until Genesis chapter 2. There was a man and woman unnamed in chapter 1, who were charged with breeding and filling the earth with their numbers. Evidently, Adam is a transplant from one of that population.

Actually, "Adam" doesn't clearly appear as a name until ch. 4 (v. 25). Prior to this the reference is to ha-'adam "the human being".

19

Is Acts 6:9 speaking about freemasons?

by EndofMysteries in

acts 6:9 "but certain men rose up of those from the so-called synagogue of the freedman"..

Leolaia

By golly! Rosebud...that's it! But what's it mean? There must be a deep, secret meaning to this enigma....let's round up all the usual suspects and see if they might help crack this mystery! Rosebud.....Rosebud....let's get on it! We might have a scoop before the other rags go to press....

5

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF>

by Cagefighter in

Leolaia

LOL.

"The exposed bodies remained lifeless".

That is nowhere stated. The bodies were first "sleeping" and then they were raised up from the dead, i.e. a bodily resurrection. Then what did they do? They left the tombs and they entered the city. Does that sound lifeless to you?

The NWT inserts a reference to "persons" into the text in order to make the actions of leaving the tombs and entering the city apply to some other agent. That is a contrivance.

54

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF!?!?!?!

by Cagefighter in

dead people raided jerusalem during the cruxifiction?

how have i never heard this before?

why do i suspect the nwt completely leaves this event out?.

Leolaia

Gloss: I've read that, but it works if the idea was the tombs split open and the next phrases explain how that's important later--the bodies were like dry bones, not resurrected and going into the city, till Jesus was resurrected.

The raising of the dead still takes place during the crucifixion even with the gloss. That's the problem. If it were the case that the dead were not resurrected till the third day, then the gloss would have occurred in v. 52. As we have it, the raised dead remain in their tombs until Jesus himself is raised. There is also tension with v. 54. "The things that took place" (ta genomena) here includes the resurrection of the dead, but the centurion could not have reacted to something that was not seen till several days later. The gloss is awkward and its removal solves these problems, and it has a clear theological motivation.

There is some evidence that the story of the resurrection of the saints originally was associated with Jesus' resurrection in the source traditions but which the evangelist associated instead with the crucifixion. In Matthew there are two earthquakes, one at the crucifixion and one at Jesus' resurrection (which opened Jesus' tomb). In the Gospel of Peter, the centurion's confession occurs not at the crucifixion but in his witnessing of Jesus' resurrection days later, and the vision of the talking cross has a close connection with Matthew's reference to the raised saints:

Gospel of Peter 5:20-6:22, 9:35-10:42, 11:45: "And at the same hour the veil of the temple in Jerusalem was rent in two. And they drew the nails from the hands of the Lord and laid him on the earth. And the whole earth shook (hè gè pasa eseisthè) and there came a great fear. Then the sun shone and it was found to be the ninth hour....Now in the night in which the Lord's day dawned, when the soldiers two by two in every watch, were keeping guard, there rang out a loud voice in heaven, and they saw the heavens opened and two men come down from there in a great brightness and draw nigh to the tomb. The stone that had been covering the entrance started to roll by itself and give way to the side, and the tomb was opened (hè taphos ènoigè ), and both the young men entered in. When now the soldiers saw this, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they also were there to assist at the watch. And while they were relating what they had seen, they saw again three men come out (exelthontas) from the tomb (apo tou taphou), and two of them supporting the other, and a cross was following them, and the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of the one held by them surpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice out of the heavens crying, 'Have you preached (ek è ruxas) to those who sleep (tois koimòmenois)?' and from the cross there was heard the answer, 'Yea'.... When those who were in the centurion's command saw this they immediately ran to Pilate in the night, abandoning the tomb they had been guarding, and reported everything they had seen, being full of fear and saying, 'Truly he was the Son of God' ".
Matthew 27:51-52, 28:2-4: "And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from top to bottom and the earth shook (hè gè eseisthè) and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened (mnèmeia aneòkhthèsan) and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep (t ò n kekoim è men ò n) were raised, and coming out ( exelthontes ) from the tombs (ex tòn mnèmeiòn) after he was raised they entered into the holy city and appeared to many....When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and exclaimed, 'Surely he was the Son of God'...And behold there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow. Those who were keeping guard were so afraid of him that they shook".

It has been suggested that the talking cross represents those who had slept that Jesus had preached to in Hades. There is a link here to another Petrine source: 1 Peter. We read in 1 Peter 4:6 that "the gospel was preached even to the dead (nekrois eu è ggelisth è)" and earlier we also read that Jesus "was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which he went and preached (ek è ruxen) to the spirits in prison" (3:18-20). Another text with a similar theme is Ephesians 4:8-9 which quotes Psalm 68:18 to claim that when Jesus "descended into the lower parts" he then "ascended on high leading a host of captives and gave gifts to men". Ignatius of Antioch (early second century AD) similarly wrote that Jesus "died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth" (Trallians 9:1), and the prophets "looked forward to him [Christ] as their teacher, and therefore he for whom they rightly waited came and raised them from the dead" (Magnesians 9:2). This connects the theme of Jesus preaching to the dead with the resurrection of the dead, which Ignatius here indicates has already occurred. This is quite close to the idea in the pericope in Matthew (notice for instance that while the dead Jesus preached to are sinners in 1 Peter, they are holy prophets in Ignatius), and that makes sense as well since there is a close literary relationship between Ignatius and Matthew (possibly because they originated in the same milieu, i.e. Syria). A similar tradition can be found in the Ascension of Isaiah (second century AD): "They will lay their hands upon him and hang him upon a tree, not knowing who he is. And thus his descent, as you will see, will be concealed even from the heavens so that it will not be known who he is. And when he has plundered the angel of death, he will rise on the third day and will remain in that world for five hundred and forty-five days. And then many of the righteous will ascend with him, whose spirits do not receive their robes until the Lord Christ ascends and they ascend with him" (9:14-17). Compare also Justin Martyr (middle of the second century AD): "The Lord God remembered his dead people of Israel (Isra è l t ò n nekr ò n autou) who slept ( t ò n kekoim è men ò n ) in their graves, and he descended to preach (euaggelisasthai) to them his own salvation" (Dialogue, 72.4). As one final example of this belief, consider Tertullian (late second century AD): "The patriarchs and prophets migrated from the lower regions (ab inferis migraverint) as appendages of the Lord's resurrection (appendices dominicae resurrectionis)" (De Anima, 55.4). This well-attested tradition associated the resurrection of the patriarchs with Jesus' resurrection. It appears that the author of Matthew misplaced this reference and moved it back a few days to coincide with the crucifixion itself, producing the contradiction that the gloss aimed to resolve.

54

Matthew 27:52-53 WTF!?!?!?!

by Cagefighter in

dead people raided jerusalem during the cruxifiction?

how have i never heard this before?

why do i suspect the nwt completely leaves this event out?.

Leolaia

Thanks, Wonderment, for posting those. Clearly, many readers are sensitive to the problems of the passage and are similarly motivated to massage what is stated.

New Simplified Bible: “ 52The tombs were split open and many [dead] bodies were tossed upright [on the ground]. 53 [They came out of the tombs after his resurrection.] (Manuscript text unclear.) Many people saw them. 54 The centurion and those who were with him watching Jesus saw the earthquake. Filled with much fear of the things that were done, they proclaimed: »Truly, this was the Son of God!” (James R. Madsen, Brackets his.)

This version elects not to even translate most of v. 53, claiming that the manuscript text is unclear. But the only potential problem in the syntax is that the masculine participle exelthontes in v. 53 has neuter "bodies" in v. 52 as its antecedent. But this is not unusual; in Mark 15:45-46, the masculine pronoun "him" has the neuter "body" as its antecedent (disagreement between the neuter and masculine in reference to persons is actually pretty common in the NT, cf. Matthew 25:32 where masculine "them" has neuter ethnè "nations" as its antecedent). In the Pericope Zombiae, "bodies" are raised but they are resurrected persons when they leave the tombs. It is interesting that Madsen does not translate most of v. 53 at all; it seems like he just doesn't like what the text says.

21st Century New Testament (right margin): “ 51 But just look what happened next! The heavy curtain dividing the Holy from the Most Holy of the temple ripped right down the middle from top to bottom! A violent earthquake split great rocks apart 52 and threw the bodies of the dead out of their tombs. Travelers passing the tombs after his resurrection, told many what they had seen when they went into the city. 54 When the centurion and his men who had been watching Jesus saw all this happening they were terrified: ‘Truly, this was the Son of God:’ they exclaimed.”

This version thoroughly revises what is in the text. Rather than saying the dead (nothing here about "holy ones" or "saints") were raised, the translation uses the active voice to make the earthquake throw them "out of their tombs". This takes the phrase "out of the tombs" from v. 53 and puts it with the earlier sentence in v. 52. Then in v. 53, we have the invented reference to "travelers passing the tombs" which is without any textual basis, and which resembles what the NWT has ("persons coming out from among the memorial tombs"). This non-existent referrent is then the subject for the "they went into the city" clause, even though in the original text it is the resurrected dead who enter into the city. And again these invented "travellers" are said to tell many what they had seen, and this again is without any textual basis.