saw this on another site... way too funny not to post here!
http://www.onthejohnnews.com/2004/001/witness.htm.
jehovah's witness accidentally eats candy cane.
Too funny! I like the parody of Adam and Eve.
But also notice how the author bungles JW doctrine (e.g. householders going "straight to hell") and terminology and culture (e.g. church community, church pastor, youth-related activities, Jehovah's Witness Community, etc.), yet also knows such terms as "worldly activity" and gets the sexism really right. So I wonder how much the person who wrote this knows the Witnesses. I still think not very much.
i'm in the uk and we haven't seen the passion of the christ yet.. however, i just watched it.
quite frankly i was astounded and moved.
i cried and cried.
I have a serious question about the film. When Jesus was badly beaten, he sees "the devil" or whoever its supposed to be walking in the crowd. (fine.) then the devil is carrying some sort of devilish baby! Where the HECK did that come from?
Sirona....I'm glad you mentioned that. For all the talk about how the movie is "only" based on the Gospels and is "true" to the gospels, as you point out, the movie has scenes and characters not found at all in the Bible. That is because the movie is really partially based on the visions written by Sister Anne Emmerich, who published her visions of the Passion in The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Please see the following pages that discuss this in detail:
http://www.challies.com/archives/000197.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/140/story_14097_1.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13958_1.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/140/story_14030_1.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/140/story_14099.html
For all those who decry the movie as anti-Semitic, most fail to mention that the movie was based on a 19th-century book that is quite strongly anti-Semitic in parts....and some of these anti-Semitic parts inspired scenes in the movie. Take a look at the book here, and see how the plan of the movie closely follows the plan of the book, beginning and ending where Emmerich's book does:
http://www.emmerich1.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm
I thus roll my eyes when I heard ppl on TV say that the movie is based only on the Gospels. The devilish child does not appear in Emmerich, though pp. 212-227 describes how St. Joseph appeared to her in the form of a child during the same visions of the scourging. But while the latter was entirely positive to Emmerich, the ugly baby in the movie is diabolical. I think this is probably an invention of Gibson's to portray a Satanic parody of Madonna and child, for he says: "What is more tender and beautiful than a mother and a child? So the Devil takes that and distorts it just a little bit. Instead of a normal mother and child you have an androgynous figure holding a 40-year-old 'baby' with hair on his back. It is weird, it is shocking, it's almost too much?just like turning Jesus over to continue scourging him on his chest is shocking and almost too much, which is the exact moment when this appearance of the Devil and the baby takes place".
i think i just came across the oldest known west semitic version of the conflict myth in a mythological text from third-millenium b.c.
ebla (c. 2200-2000 bc):"i have bound habhaby.
i have bound his tongue.
I think I just came across the oldest known West Semitic version of the conflict myth in a mythological text from third-millenium B.C. Ebla (c. 2200-2000 BC):
"I have bound Habhaby. I have bound his tongue. I have found the barrier of his teeth. I have bound you on a black stone by the double doors and struck the Sea (tihamatim) with a reed. I have bound you by seven mighty contraptions. I have bound you by the zidanu and amana. I have bound you by the tails of the Sun and by the horns of the Moon. Seven youths and seven maidens are exalted, and [...] the Star (kabkabu). The bricklayer will lay the bricks by the double doors of Ellil, father of the gods and the Star has established him as representative to Ellil, father of the gods. Ellil, the father of the gods performs the magic. Spell of the Star. [...] I have bound you on Zazaum, O no-good one. [...] O Sun-god! May you lay the bricks and build the house of Ellil the father of the gods. [...] The Star is appointed as the emissary to Ellil the father of the gods. [...] The earth has confined the serpent (bashanu); O serpent in the sea (ba-tihamat)! [...] So says the magician Dagama [to the serpent]: 'I have smitten thee'. [...] May Hadd fetch the dazzling stone and the triple-garment for the Star [who was appointed to induce Ellil to perform the magic]". (ARET 5).
Very striking is the fact that the storm-god Ellil has his palace built after defeating the sea-serpent (bashanu, the same word that refers to Lotan in Ugaritic myth in KTU 1.5 i 1-5), the use of a word cognate to Hebrew thwm and Akkadian Tiamat, and that while contraptions, a reed, and celestial objects were used to bind and defeat Habhaby, Ellil uses magic through the person of Daguma to defeat the monster. As for the name Habhaby, it occurs in Ugaritic in unduplicated form in KTU 1.114 R 19-20 as the "creeping monster (hby) with horns and tail (b'l qrnm w dnb)" who attacks El after he drank in his palace and "El fell down as though dead, El was like those who go down into the underworld" (Asherah and Anat then cure him). One possibility is that the monster here is a prototype of Western conceptions of Satan, or a satyr-like monster. Pardee and Wyatt suggest that the name derives from Egyptian hpy, the deified Nile River worshipped in the incarnation of the Apis bull. He would thus provide the necessary horns and tail. Note that the description of the moon is consistent with the bull-iconography of Yarih and Sin in Assyrian and Mari/Nuzi texts.
For a full detailed discussion of this conflict myth in the OT and NT, especially with regard to Leviathan and Rahab, please see the following thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68098/1.ashx.
the primeval conflict myth is a staple of greek, hittite, canaanite, babylonian, and even hindu myth, and the canaanite version appears throughout the ot and even turns up in the christian apocalypse of revelation.
this post will survey the literary evidence of the myth in the bible and in ancient literature.
in revelation, jesus is the messiah-figure whose birth is depicted in ch.
I think I just came across the oldest known version of the conflict myth in a mythological text from third-millenium B.C. Ebla (c. 2200-2000 BC):
"I have bound Habhaby. I have bound his tongue. I have found the barrier of his teeth. I have bound you on a black stone by the double doors and struck the Sea (tihamatim) with a reed. I have bound you by seven mighty contraptions. I have bound you by the zidanu and amana. I have bound you by the tails of the Sun and by the horns of the Moon. Seven youths and seven maidens are exalted, and [...] the Star (kabkabu). The bricklayer will lay the bricks by the double doors of Ellil, father of the gods and the Star has established him as representative to Ellil, father of the gods. Ellil, the father of the gods performs the magic. Spell of the Star. [...] I have bound you on Zazaum, O no-good one. [...] O Sun-god! May you lay the bricks and build the house of Ellil the father of the gods. [...] The Star is appointed as the emissary to Ellil the father of the gods. [...] The earth has confined the serpent (bashanu); O serpent in the sea (ba-tihamat)! [...] So says the magician Dagama [to the serpent]: 'I have smitten thee'. [...] May Hadd fetch the dazzling stone and the triple-garment for the Star [who was appointed to induce Ellil to perform the magic]". (ARET 5).
Very striking is the fact that the storm-god Ellil has his palace built after defeating the sea-serpent (bashanu, the same word that refers to Lotan in Ugaritic myth in KTU 1.5 i 1-5), the use of a word cognate to Hebrew thwm and Akkadian Tiamat, and that while contraptions, a reed, and celestial objects were used to bind and defeat Habhaby, Ellil uses magic through the person of Daguma to defeat the monster. As for the name Habhaby, it occurs in Ugaritic in unduplicated form in KTU 1.114 R 19-20 as the "creeping monster (hby) with horns and tail (b'l qrnm w dnb)" who attacks El after he drank in his palace and "El fell down as though dead, El was like those who go down into the underworld" (Asherah and Anat then cure him). One possibility is that the monster here is a prototype of Western conceptions of Satan, or a satyr-like monster. Pardee and Wyatt suggest that the name derives from Egyptian hpy, the deified Nile River worshipped in the incarnation of the Apis bull. He would thus provide the necessary horns and tail. Note that the description of the moon is consistent with the bull-iconography of Yarih and Sin in Assyrian and Mari/Nuzi texts.
okay... this is _sorta_ a 'reunion' - so i posted it here.. i will be flying out to san jose tomorrow (april 27th), and then driving back to texas via ih-10.
(i think we are going to start off by coming through part of los angeles.).
this will take me through all sorts of interesting places that i have never been... (i've been to san jose, ca - but not out ih-10).. anyway... i think that it would be really really really cool if i could meet (even if just over the phone) some of you folks - who might be in this 'path'.. so... if you feel 'brave' enuf to want to meet up with a nerd - and trust that i am not psychotic... neurotic, or any of those other 'otics', then perhaps... if you could pm me... i can give you my e-mail addy, and we could then exchange a phone number or something.. i leave tomorrow... i know this is pretty sudden-like... so... you will need to make a 'coin-toss' decision - and pm me tonight... or no later than tomorrow am.. i hope that i can at least talk to... or meet... one person from this forum in the next few days.
Oh ok, so should we see whether Tuesday or Wednesday works best? I could do either but perhaps Wednesday is better too.
okay... this is _sorta_ a 'reunion' - so i posted it here.. i will be flying out to san jose tomorrow (april 27th), and then driving back to texas via ih-10.
(i think we are going to start off by coming through part of los angeles.).
this will take me through all sorts of interesting places that i have never been... (i've been to san jose, ca - but not out ih-10).. anyway... i think that it would be really really really cool if i could meet (even if just over the phone) some of you folks - who might be in this 'path'.. so... if you feel 'brave' enuf to want to meet up with a nerd - and trust that i am not psychotic... neurotic, or any of those other 'otics', then perhaps... if you could pm me... i can give you my e-mail addy, and we could then exchange a phone number or something.. i leave tomorrow... i know this is pretty sudden-like... so... you will need to make a 'coin-toss' decision - and pm me tonight... or no later than tomorrow am.. i hope that i can at least talk to... or meet... one person from this forum in the next few days.
So if Jim comes after 5:15pm, should we think of a dinner meeting at a restaurant or something? Should we just think of a place and plan on meeting there?
(I'm not yet sure if I can go.)
according to leviticus 20:27, "any man or woman who has a ghost ('wb) or who has a familiar spirit (yd'ny) will be put to death".
the law in deuteronomy 18:11 also commands the israelites to not "consult ghosts (ws'l 'wb) nor familiar spirits (wyd'ny), nor attempt to communicate with the dead (wdrs 'l-hmtym)".
in 1 samuel 28:7-13, the spirit medium of en-dor "consulted ghosts ('wb)".
Here is some discussion of the evidence in THE GOD DAGAN IN BRONZE AGE SYRIA by Lluis Feliu:
The identification of Dagan with d BE is the key to understanding his role within the pantheon, what his attributes were and what was the extent of his cult. G. Pettinato was the first to identify d BE with Dagan, considering it to be an epithet of the god, "Lord" and he interpreted the month BE-li as the commemoration of a festival dedicated to the lord or a feast dedicated to Dagan who is "The Lord" par excellence. A. Archi also identified d BE with Dagan, interpreting it as a logogram or as an abbreviation of belu "lord", a special epithet of Dagan.....
If we restruct ourselves to the documentation at our disposal, we can only conclude that Dagan, as such, does not occur in quotations in context in the texts from Ebla. Only the d BE of Tuttul 'The Lord of Tuttul" is Dagan, with almost complete certainty. The sanctuary of Dagan at Tuttul is very well documented from the Sargonic period and during the whole of the second millenium. The most logical conclusion is to think that "the Lord of Tuttul" is Dagan, and thus Dagan was worshipped at Ebla under this local dedication. The presence of a divine statue of the goddess Sha(l)ash as the consort of d BE in Tuttul (EB:T 18), is further proof for identifying "The Lord of Tuttul" with Dagan, since in later tradition Dagan has Shalash as a consort. This goddess is documented in three other texts from Ebla, but in these cases connected with the god Wada'an(u) and with Karramu, which according to A. Archi is a town to the northeast of Ebla, beyond the Euphrates Valley....
The oldest reference to a possible consort of Dagan comes from Ebla. There we find an offering to the "Lord of Tuttul" (= Dagan) and a consignment of silver and gold for the statue of the goddess Sha(l)asha; other texts from Ebla seem to indicate that this goddess was paired with the god Wada'an, even so, the coupling with Dagan seems evident, especially if we consider the information from the textual material of the second millenium. The fact that there was a goddess who continued to be worshipped in Tuttul, one of the holy cities of the cult of Dagan where king Sargon of Akkad prostrated himself before the god, added to the consort having the same name in the list Babylonian An=Anum shows there is little margin for doubt. In the Old Babylonian period, Dagan appears to have a special relationship with the goddess Ninhursag ....
The key could be in a text from Aleppo found in Mari in which there is a reference to a mourning ceremony for the death of Sumu-epuh, in this text Dagan occurs accompanied by the goddesses Hebat and Shalash; the presence of the former can be explained as she is the wife of the patron god of Aleppo (Addu) and as daughter of Dagan. It is reasonable, then, that Shalash occurs in the text as Dagan's wife, from which we may infer that Ninhursag is the learned writing of the name of the goddess Shalash, Dagan's traditional consort according to the Babylonian god lists and according to the material from Ebla. Other typically southern writings found in Mari may also correspond to Shalash, such as Ninlil, Enlil's traditional wife in Babylonia, or Ninkugi, who is equivalent to Shalash in the lists....
One of the problems that remain unresolved is that Dagan and Adad appear to share a wife. For this apparent contradiction various solutions have been proposed by the experts. The most common view has been to deduce a certain equivalence of attributes or identification of the two gods. Other scholars have preferred to see an equivalence of the two gods by Babylonian theologians; others have left the question as inexplicable, the result of traditions coexisting. Shala's relationship with Adad is well attested already in the Old Babylonian period and continues afterwards, both in the Assyrian texts and in late Babylonian rituals....
What is called the 'pantheon of Mari' lists Dagan, The-Lord-of-the-land (Bel-matim) and Shalash (Ninhursag). If we accept the hypothesis of seeing Lord-of-the-land as a hypostasis of Addu, it seems obvious that there is a 'family' enumeration of the three deities, that is to say, Father, Son, and Mother: Dagan, Addu, and Shalash; in this way we already have evidence for a father-son relationship between Dagan and Addu in the first half of the second millenium. It can also be noted that the weapons of Addu from Aleppo are deposited in the temple of Dagan in Terqa in order to perform the coronation ceremony of the king of Mari and stage the mytheme of the combat between the Storm-god and the god of the Sea. In this ceremony, Dagan had a passive role, was the host of the ceremony, in this way however he gave it legitimacy as father of the gods and as father of Addu, the main protagonist of the mytheme. This close relationship between Dagan and Addu is evident in the texts from Mari that invoke the gods together, this evidence, together with the material from Ugarit naming Baal as the son of Dagan, invite proposing this father-son relationship already in the Old Babylonian period.
Looking through this evidence, it seems appropriate to posit that in the Ebla texts "Wada'anu" is an epithet of Dagan, whose rituals involving worship of the dead are directly evoked by the Hebrew yd'ny. Dagan also originally bore the title Baal/Bel "Lord". Then in the Middle Bronze Age, with Hadad being designated as Dagan's son, Dagan's attributes were shifted to Hadad/Addu, so that the latter began to bear the title Baal and in Akkadian and Assyrian texts, Addu even took over Dagan's wife in modified form.
according to leviticus 20:27, "any man or woman who has a ghost ('wb) or who has a familiar spirit (yd'ny) will be put to death".
the law in deuteronomy 18:11 also commands the israelites to not "consult ghosts (ws'l 'wb) nor familiar spirits (wyd'ny), nor attempt to communicate with the dead (wdrs 'l-hmtym)".
in 1 samuel 28:7-13, the spirit medium of en-dor "consulted ghosts ('wb)".
I didn't say that Baal was a god of the underworld; I meant that he had a chthonic aspect due to his cyclic death and release from the underworld. Some scholars think that Baal's name during his summer stay in the underworld was Rapiu, but I am unconvinced of this for a number of reasons. Now Baal certainly represents a conflation of Hadad with other originally independent deities, and since "Baal" originated as a title meaning "Lord" his later identification with Hadad/Addu is subsequent to earlier uses of the title. As I said before, there were many more deities attested in the earlier period, and there were several rain gods in West Semitic mythology of the Early Bronze and Middle Bronze Age. In Ugaritic texts Baal was designated as the son of Dagan, but in far earlier texts, Hadad and Dagan were both different rain gods in competition (cf. Arabic haddat "thunder" < Hadad; Semitic root *dgn "cloudy, rainy" < Dagan). Baal-Hadad was associated with the underworld in Ugaritic myth and Dagan clearly was associated with the underworld in Akkadian/Amorite mythology. As mentioned above, the consort Shala/Shalash was also shared between the two deities (Shala being the wife of Adad, Shalash being the wife of Dagan), and like Enlil and Baal-Hadad, Dagan also had a chthonic aspect. According to J. J. M. Roberts:
"Dagan, like his Sumerian counterpart Enlil, also has ties with the underworld. In both the Ugaritic and Mari material he is the recipient of sacrifices for the dead, and in a new Mari text he is given the epithet b'l pagre "Lord of the sacrifices for the dead". Moreover, a long known text appears to have Dagan gathering the underworld deities and untrusting them to Allatum. This link with the underworld probably grows out of the fructifying role of the rainstorm, since both Enlil and Dagan were thought of as the impregnating power which caused the earth to produce grain" (The Earliest Semitic Pantheon, p. 19)
So here we see that in earlier times, Dagan (in Ugarit the father of Baal) himself bore the title "Baal" and was associated with the underworld in just the expected way. Dagan's wife was named Shalash, and this is the name attested in the older Early Bronze texts from Ebla as the wife of Wada'anu. And to bring things full circle, in Iron Age Hebrew texts yd'ny (the cognate of Wada'anu) appears as the name of the spirits involved in rituals involving the dead, and in the Talmud, Baal also occurs as part of the name of certain practices involving dead spirits. The messiness of syncretism is expected, but there does appear to be a direct link between the Hebrew terms and the older West Semitic practices involving the dead.
okay... this is _sorta_ a 'reunion' - so i posted it here.. i will be flying out to san jose tomorrow (april 27th), and then driving back to texas via ih-10.
(i think we are going to start off by coming through part of los angeles.).
this will take me through all sorts of interesting places that i have never been... (i've been to san jose, ca - but not out ih-10).. anyway... i think that it would be really really really cool if i could meet (even if just over the phone) some of you folks - who might be in this 'path'.. so... if you feel 'brave' enuf to want to meet up with a nerd - and trust that i am not psychotic... neurotic, or any of those other 'otics', then perhaps... if you could pm me... i can give you my e-mail addy, and we could then exchange a phone number or something.. i leave tomorrow... i know this is pretty sudden-like... so... you will need to make a 'coin-toss' decision - and pm me tonight... or no later than tomorrow am.. i hope that i can at least talk to... or meet... one person from this forum in the next few days.
I'm pretty close to SJ too, but I dont have a car.
i wonder how closely related to the jws they are?.
http://www.heraldmag.org.
odrade
Hey, check out the history of the post-Russell schisms of 1917 and 1918:
http://www.heraldmag.org/04history_6.htm
I knew of many of these, but I had no idea how international the schisms were. It's like the movement shattered into many shards like a mirror. And I had no idea the Standfasters had their own journal called Old Corn Gems. I wonder if any issues have survived (I bet they'd sell for a lot on eBay). The other surprise was about Mr. MacMillan's talk in September 1914 which sounds reminiscent of some of the "enthusiastic" pre-1975 talks about what was to come. Anyone have a copy of MacMillan's talk "I am Ready to be Offered". That'd be fun to read.
