next year im thinking of going to the usa and would like to meet up with a few evil apostate types any offers?.
btw.
i would also like to go to canada and try to trace down an old freind - i have no idea in canada where he is cant even remember how to spell his name - should be fun looking under rocks and in hollow logs calling out his name in the wilderness.
Mr. Mole? Are you the mole from SL?
Anyway, August is the best month for the Pacific Northwest (in Soutwest Washington) - July and September are fabulous too, just not quite as consistant. But in April, all you will get is rain. We call it a sunny day if it isn't raining.
Edited by - buster on 25 October 2002 17:49:51
one intresting thing is that both the kingdom interlinear and the nwt is based on the greek text of westcott & hort.
that is a good text, and was the text for about two generations.
but today no one except the watchtower society bases their translation on that text.
I put a lot of stock in what Ray Franz had to say about his uncle. I think the most relevant here is the he was a great 'rationalizer.' I remember a story from CofC where Fred was explaining a way of rationalizing the expression 'door to door.' In that story, other writers were pressing their views that the original text more likely implied a visiting believers, or interested people rather than the JW mode of 'door to door.' Finally, and serious as a heart attack, Fred says that he can justify the term because they could enter a house of a believer 'thru one door, and exit thru another door' (paraphrased from memory) - and that would justify the term.
Also, I have a booklet, "The Divine Name in the NWT" that goes into intense detail as to the introduction of 'Jehovah' in hundreds of places in the Greek scriptures. The reader is lead thru numerous especially bothersome such introductions, as well as the JW rationalization for them. Some will jump out at a former JW. The NWT scriptures read Jehovah, when, if the translation had been based on the earliest extant versions, it would seem more likely to refer to Jesus.
The two above points are the long way of saying that it seems entirely unlikley that the organization could stand upheaval of readdressing all the issues that Fred Franz had rationalized away sooo long ago. The new translation committee would need to start with the basic assumption that recent versions - of the 16th to 18th centuries - are more accurate than second century versions that have been available all along.
I doubt the society would have the confidence that a new committee would be nearly as adept at translating a New NWT to fit JW theology without the great rationalizer, Fred Franz. Besides, the closest these guys get to classical Greek is by having Feta cheese on a salad, or maybe ...
Edited by - buster on 25 October 2002 17:26:51
ok folks,.
yesterday was my good ol' birthday!!
and sure enough, some jackass steals my car!!
All rightee then Jes !! I can just imagine how many "Car Stolen on Birthday" stories we're gonna get now.
heres a story of what happened to me at a district convention this year.. an unbaptised publisher and i travelled to wolverhampton district convention in england.
this wasnt our district but id been on holiday and had missed my own district convention (how unspiritual of me).
so me and this friend decided to go to this convention and was also hoping to meet a friend there.. on the saturday morning we were delayed in traffic and we eventually arrived at 11.30am, paid our 3 for parking (i wonder if they had the use of car parks for free?
I remember working at Assemblies. I especially liked working in the Administration office - your worst nightmare, a teenager with a badge. We could go anywhere in the place - usually a dog track. I used to take my friends and impress them. Some of them actually did manual labor - like expediting food and stuff. We always had some bigger borthers when there was some money move around - still sounds reasonable to me.
But that is a pretty intensive piece of paranoia thay got goin there. I can imagine having some capacity to remove a disruptive force. But to confront someone, interrogate him, and still not believe him, sounds like somebody needs some time alone with the Gospels.
- Buster
Grtis: thanks for the welcome See ya Later Chica
hundreds pay tribute to jehovah teen who fought against blood.
transfusions.. by licia corbella, editor.
do not mourn me for i'm not dead.. i lay asleep upon this bed.
A 17-yr-old, blinded by over zealous self-righteousness, sticks to her guns and dies as a result. This is no merit (I apologize to her dad, if you are reading this) for this poor child. Her descision had no basis in a mature, rational world. Her descision-making was kept child-like and her view of right and wrong kept simplistic.
Those damnable, cold-hearted JWs that kept her away from medical help - relieved to be away from them.
if we were to go back to the borg, would we see any marked difference in the attitudes/environment in the organization?
would it appear more liberal or more strict than it was 20 or more years ago?
or would it appear that not much has changed?.
Been out about 22 years.
I've watched and participated in some discussions at some other sites that made me wonder this precise question. It seems to me that the society has changed a bit - but not at its core. They still approach the bible with a 'jigsaw puzzle' (R. Franz) strategy, ignoring the big picture. The society still believes it is the arbiter of all descisions doctrinal, and that any dissention is unacceptable. They still have that 'we are an army for Jehovah' 'tude.
Changes: It does seem that they have mitigated their stance against education a bit. I read an earlier reply that reinforces that. I can't imagine they still can maintain their 'Armageddon any minute' watch now that they have defined a generation so loosely.
But most interstingly, I have noticed that many JW defenders are defending their religion by putting it in a context with other religions. Lots of - "But the Cathloics do this too," or "What about the Mormons?" As soon as that attitude gets more pervasive, more and more people will look around and wonder why they are in this mess if it is no better.
- Buster
more than any time in history respect and the awe of god has seriously eroded .
man has taken creation for granted and have allowed themselves to believe that no intelligence was required in the making of the universe.
random impersonal forces they delude themselves could have caused all we see in the universe.
Wow, Pomegranate, where do you get the time and emotional energy? Stunning.
But I would like to throw out one of the opinions that had Vinny P. running to the elders, all crying, because he thought I was becoming apostate. This very topic got me in front of Jim P., and I think Erwin A. and one other after a Thursday meeting.
This isn't all that original, but I don't see creationsim and evolution as mutually exclusive. I don't imagine that you are one of the guys that denies the fossil record - that these animals and plants really existed. You see it strikes me as absurdly tedious for a God to create a set of flora and fauna, then decide that some of them had served their purpose, and clear them out, and then make another set with some varying set of characteristics and see how they work out for a while.
Of course anything is possible - but I find it infinitely more elegant that a formative intelligence would have been able to get the ingredients together, muons, gluons, quarks, meso quarks (those may not even be elemental particles). That once assembled, maybe in some ultra-massive sigularity (the start of the big bang), the intelligence just let it go and the rest is history.
What one needs to do is stop seeing the bible as a 'scientific source' (jjrizo) and see the scriptures as written for a set of people of a specific time. Especially the Old Testament stuff. One needs to stop seeing the description of forming clay as literal, and see it as a long process that resulted in mankind. We need to stop inferring references of a 'creation day' as some set period of time.
Long ago, organized religion made some interpretations of the bible and we are still living with those inferences to this day - probably always will.
Of course Elder Jim P. (can't believe he had a degree) came back with some bunk about how he could see that a horse could easily enough evolve into a smaller horse - But that there was no way that a horse could become a pig. (Or somesuch very much like that). That was one of several times before the inquisition.
Looking forward to hearing from you,
- Buster
i need some really good points to prove to my husband once and for all, everything i have learned so far is right.
we were talking again last night, and he actually for the first time said he would look at the information that i have found.
i have the coc book, and i dont want to throw a whole bunch of stuff at him at one time.
I'm feelin' agreeable today.
I like the list above - one in particular: the one referring to the math for the remnant. I like it because it is one of the more absurd man-made doctrines - AND it is their basis of their claim to authority and power.
But I would like to add: Back in the late 70's, there were somewhere in the 10,000 range that partook at the memorial. They were old then! How many of those have survived to today? Maybe half? quarter?
Today, somewhere around 8,000 partake at the memorial. If my sense of the numbers works, in the past 25 years or so, they would have needed 'replacements' (remember that concept? replacements for some annointed that fall away? after all, annointed, but still human). Not only would they have needed replacements, they would have needed at least 3000 to 5000 replacements to have 8,000 still on this side of the sod.
Folks, that means that of the 10,000 around 25 years ago 5,000 to 7,000 have likely died, 3000 to 5000 would have had to fall away and be replaced by today's partakers.
This is a fundamental tenent of who the leadership claims to be - and it is easy math.
i need some really good points to prove to my husband once and for all, everything i have learned so far is right.
we were talking again last night, and he actually for the first time said he would look at the information that i have found.
i have the coc book, and i dont want to throw a whole bunch of stuff at him at one time.
I will agree with some previous posters - that arguing doctrine is a waste of time. As long as a witness is in their scripture-snippet quoting mode, you get anywhere.
I also agree with the recomendations that a great place to start is with CofC. But if there is one place to target, it is where he explains how juvenile Witnesses are in their understanding of the bible. Yes they can quote any number of snippets, Watchtower and Bible - some in, some out fo context. But I have never heard a Witness that could discuss Paul's sense of community, or why the Apostle was writing this particular letter. That is where one can get a sense of context, and where one will lose the urge to adhere to an organization's interpretation of Book-this, Verse-that.
Pomegranate: Are you the one J Rizo told me was from Franklin?
Funny that you started this thread. Just a few days ago, I was searching for 'Why' by AWB via Kazaa.
