Posts by Laika

44

Disfellowshiping: Why the Terror?

by Cold Steel in

the more i read about ritual shunning and disfellowshiping in the society, the more i wonder how the governing body and elders have pulled the proverbial wool over the eyes of the congregation.

first, the society doesnt consider itself a church (unlike the ancient christians, who did consider themselves to be part of a church).

yet, like other sectarians, they have their hands out for contributions and exercise immense power over their members.

Laika

TD has this right based on my experience, it is confusing, when I 'came out' as apostate to my parents they reported me to the elders, but they reported me to the elders in their congregation, which is not my most recent congregation, I thought I was going to get disfellowshipped after this but nothing happened because I believe those elders are not allowed to call me to a judicial committee.

I suppose those elders could then have reported me to the elders in my local congregation but that doesn't seem to have happened so far as I've not heard from them in over a month.

I guess I have escaped disfellowshipping on a technicality, I think this is something fading apostates should use to their advantage if possible.

12

Faith v. Works

by Ding in

recently, i wanted to make sure i was being accurate about wt doctrine, so i read a number of wt articles about salvation.. i was surprised to see how many of them say that everlasting life is a gift based on the ransom sacrifice, that it can't be earned.. if you talk to a jw they may even quote this teaching.. yet if you try to tell a jw that the bible says the salvation comes by grace through faith, they immediately tell you that faith without works is dead and that you need to take in knowledge, obey god's laws, identify and join jehovah's organization, and for the rest of your life go door to door with the good news of jehovah's kingdom.. why do you think jws can't see the contradiction in all of this?.

how can we get across to them that this doesn't make sense?.

Laika

Christians, at least protestant/evangelical ones, tend to argue that you are saved by faith alone. The difference with JWs is that they believe you are saved by both faith and works, neither alone. When they say you are not saved by works they mean not works alone, you need faith to go with it.

It's not exactly a contradiction so much as a different understanding of the terms. Though it does create the issue of worrying if they've done enough.

I emphasise the unconditional love of God described in the parables of Luke 15 with JWs, from which you can build on what grace is.

55

"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."

by nicolaou in

how many of us have had to deal with a version of that retort?!

it's hurtful and i suspect - for some - that's partly because of the nagging feeling that our families may have a point.. but do they?.

i was 15 when i got baptised, is it reasonable that as the 50 year old man i'll be on my next birthday i continue to be held to a decision i made as a schoolboy?.

Laika

But isn't it a bit like an abusive husband threatening his wife if she leaves him and then following through on the threat?

'You knew the consequences' true, but it's still abusive, and the abuser is always to blame.

Edit: cofty used the same analogy: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/251655/1/My-Parents-Reply-to-my-Letter

5

Making the name of Jehovah known...

by MeanMrMustard in

i decided, for whatever reason, to go onto the goolge ngrams viewer tonight.

for those of you who have not played with it, its actually quite fun.

google has created a search for word seqences through hundreds of years of literature.

Laika

Interesting, I did a search for 'Yahweh' and assuming I did it right, the use of Yahweh has gone up, which would suggest people are moving from Jehovah to Yahweh. Perhaps the reaction to JWs is the reason?

11

Sam Harris' $20,000 Challenge - The Moral Landscape

by cofty in

in his book, "the moral landscape" sam harris argues that you can in fact get "an ought from an is".. the split between facts and values is an illusion.. he challenges the assumption that science has nothing to say about objective morality, which he defines as our thinking about the well-being of conscious creatures.. personally i found his book to be compelling; all the arguments against it that i have read so far are based on misunderstandings of his thesis.

i hve quoted harris a couple of times when he said to his critics that he didn't want to be wrong any longer than necessary.

in that spirit he has offered $10,000 to anybody who can refute the central argument of his book in 1000 words or less.

Laika

Honestly no, I'm interested (though skeptical) of the possibility that science has something to say on morality, so I may check it out later. His argument may be compelling but I don't think offering a bet proves much, Kent Hovind offered 250k to anyone who could prove evolution. When the person paying out is also the one who decides what is 'proof' or 'refutation' it doesn't really mean much. Edit: just seen your second reply, yes I meant the challenge, not the original.

40

Now I'm not a JW, is it ok for me to...

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

...drink a lot?

gosh i love wine.

i like a good bottle of wine each night, and i have a high tolerance to alcohol, though i never drank much (except for a couple of times with the vodka, but i don't keep that stuff in the house anymore, way too dangerous) as a jw because getting slightly happy is a 'sin'.

Laika

It's ok but it may not be healthy, I'd recommend longer and more frequent breaks. Maybe take a week off every now and again.

11

Sam Harris' $20,000 Challenge - The Moral Landscape

by cofty in

in his book, "the moral landscape" sam harris argues that you can in fact get "an ought from an is".. the split between facts and values is an illusion.. he challenges the assumption that science has nothing to say about objective morality, which he defines as our thinking about the well-being of conscious creatures.. personally i found his book to be compelling; all the arguments against it that i have read so far are based on misunderstandings of his thesis.

i hve quoted harris a couple of times when he said to his critics that he didn't want to be wrong any longer than necessary.

in that spirit he has offered $10,000 to anybody who can refute the central argument of his book in 1000 words or less.

Laika

And which objective source is going to determine that the argument has been refuted? Sam Harris himself? Sounds like a gimmick.

24

Funny demon conversation

by problemaddict in

minimus inspired me to recall a crazy conversation i had with a houseguest at my home while i was one of jw's and even serving.

i had a houseguest say that she couldn't sleep all night, and then she found a birthday card in her friends room that someone at work gave her innocently enough.

she burned it and said she could finally sleep.. i asked her if she knew how long ago her friends birthday was?

Laika

I remember having a good laugh at a friend's expense the first time I heard the story about smurf toys dancing at the kingdom hall. She insisted that her mother was at the meeting when it happened.

60

Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT false prophets

by SloppyJoe in

jw
friends

tonight on the service meeting we discussed why jws are not false prophets.

of the ten minute part two were spent discussing that jws just had wrong expectations and only very minor changes over the years although nothing specific was mentioned.

the other eight focused on the core bible truths that have remained the same over the years.

Laika

There are lots of threads on this one talk!

I am glad I don't go to meetings anymore, the whole superiority complex 'Sure, we got stuff wrong, but we are still so much better than those people who get other stuff wrong' is something I just don't have the patience for now.

29

"False Prophets" part notably uncomfortable

by Separation of Powers in

so, service meeting last night.

bro handling the "false prophet" part was notably disturbed.

every time he spoke of previous "expectations" his body language was like "oh my god, can you believe i'm saying this?

Laika

It is an odd subject for a talk. I'd have thought they'd be better off never mentioning the 'wrong expectations' at all.