Posts by adamah

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

If there were nine or even one righteous man found in Sodom, those nine or even one would have been led out... (providing they chose to listen and follow, but if they were righteous I do not see how they would not have obeyed)... not killed. There were not so many found, though.

TEC, I already explained the evolution of Judeo-Christian beliefs over the 500-600 yr period from contact with the Persian liberators (who followed Zoroasterian beliefs, which held that individuals stood before Ahuru Mazda after death), to the time when Jesus walked the Earth and showed a bit of that ancient communal responsibility for their failure to provide hospitality to his disciples, in Matthew 10:11-15 (parallel to Luke 10:5-12):

Whenever you enter a town or village, find out who is worthy there and stay with them until you leave. As you enter the house, give it greetings. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come on it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not welcome you or listen to your message, shake the dust off your feet as you leave that house or that town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!

Here is Matthew 11:20-24, in which Jesus rebukes certain cities for not believing in him:

Then Jesus began to criticize openly the cities in which he had done many of his miracles, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you! And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to Hades! For if the miracles done among you had been done in Sodom, it would have continued to this day. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you!”

Beyond that, I'm not going over it again just for you, since I don't think you'll 'get it' now just like you didn't before. I explained it in the article on my blog about Lot:

http://awgue.weebly.com/article-pt-1-revisiting-sodom-was-lot-supposed-to-be-viewed-as-a-righteous-man.html

That's not just MY whacky theory: it's a well-researched and understood topic which you too can learn but ONLY if "you have eyes to see, and ears to hear". It's also why God condemned the ENTIRE World in the Flood BEFORE he broke the news to Noah that he had won the lottery and would get to survive...

The evolution of accountability can be seen shifting from communal towards individual throughout the OT, AND more importantly, the shift is confirmed by non-Biblical texts (other ancient writings). JWs still show vestiges of the earlier Jewish thinking of communal responsibility, but then shift to individual responsibility; it's still a mish-mash, where the blame isn't delineated (and that confusion allows for game-playing and pointing fingers).

For a start, read Pamela Barmash's work, "Homocide in the Bible World", a Jewish lawyer and OT scholar who wrote extensively comparing the Torah's legal codes to other legal codes and cuneiform laws that existed in the ANE both before and after.

So you can do some research on your own, or you can remain mired in your own fantasy, but just realize that's all it is: it's ALL only in your head, and your whacky hypothesis is ludicrious, since it flies in the face of the earlier 'bargaining' scene: if God could just lead the righteous men of Sodom out of harm's way, then why bother with the entire bargaining scene?

Adam

14

Can you be DFd if you were never really baptised?

by Slidin Fast in

here's a question.

i was baptised at a very early age.

it may have been as early as ten years old.

adamah

Giordano said- I was and still am considered a practicing Captain Video's Rocket Ranger even though I was 7 or 8 years old when I signed up.

Reminds me of when I was a member of the Columbia Record and Tape Club as a kid, but had a problem when they sent me a bunch of wrong albums I never ordered, so I sent them back; they never received the items, since they were lost in the mail. Of course, they tried to bully me into paying for the lost merchandise by threatening to sue. I sent them a letter saying I was only 12 y.o. and they could go pound sand, since they entered into a contract with a minor, so it's not a valid enforceable contract. I never heard back from them (unless they're just waiting for me to join up again as an adult), lol!

Pretty topsy-turvy World we live in where children can make profound life-altering decisions to dedicate the rest of their lives to God (which on the commitment spectrum lies closer to marriage), but something like entering a contract to buy albums is not enforceable if the person is a minor.

If I had it my way, I'd say there ought to be a law against baptism of minors (of course, it'll never happen: religious lobbies are too powerful, and most religions don't abuse the practice, like JWs do to lock people in to their religion before they even can understand the implications).

Adam

12

Update on Ark Encounter (YEC theme park): creationist Ken Ham offering junk bonds

by adamah in

seems the ark encounter project is having a hard time raising funds, but ken ham doesn't miss a chance to bash obamacare to help raise funds.

ham is pushing junk bonds to help finance the project:.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/ark_encounter_finances_obamacare_sank_ken_ham_s_creationist_theme_park.html.

adamah

SNR said-

So with all our technology and knowledge , in 2013 the ark would cost 73 million dollars, but a drunkard old man managed with his inbred family thousands of years ago, noooooo problem....

Yeah, well remember that this is a non-floating version, which is built on land (unlike the ark built in the Netherlands, which was built on a barge frame). Of course, Noah didn't need to worry about the additional costs of meeting State building codes, or allow for wheelchair access ADA ramps, etc.

Hey, I see they've managed to make a scale model showing what the complex will look like: that's something...

http://arkencounter.com/blog/2013/10/03/ark-model-hits-the-runway/ark-model-1/

That's from their blog, which is pretty hilarious reading (and a post in the archives called "tool time with Noah" raises the issue of Noah's financing the original purchase of lumber (!), tools, pitch/tar, laborers, property, etc). It's actually not a bad idea: Disneyland for Bible-thumpin' creationists (i.e. those Xians for whom Disney is too edgy and risque). Of course, you'd have to count out the Amish, JWs, etc. since it's not their flavor of crazy: that's the likely show-stopper.

Adam

30

I regret my disassociation.

by Zoos in

jw
friends

if i knew then what i know now, i might never have disassociated myself.

i realize all i can do is speculate on what could have been.

however, when i consider the number of people i might have been able to help by dropping little thought-provoking seeds, i really regret having jumped to the decision to disassociate so quickly.. ive read the accounts of several people on this forum telling of how stressful it is to be in the position that i just described above.

adamah

Well, to play Devil's advocate, NOT DAing carries risks, too: cold feet, and still being a part of the JW organization, and hence adding one more warm body to the head count to boost the attendance roles. There's something to be said for shutting that door and moving on with your life, since it's very stressful to remain in JW limbo.

It's nice to think you can help others to see TTATT, but not everyone is cut out for the 'Spy vs Spy' game, and living in limbo and being a hypocrit. Ultimately, you can only save yourself, and you actually vote with your feet by putting your money where your beliefs are.

Adam

24

Is there an official name for this comedic device?

by Island Man in

is there an official name for the comedic device where one replaces one word with another word having a similar pronounciation but a different (usually derisive) meaning?.

for example, some skeptics deride the bible by spelling it "buy-bull".

same or simliar pronounciation but entirely different meaning.

adamah

Yeah, as Lisa said, they're puns.

Problem is, it's not actually an argument, since it's driven by the 'style over substance' fallacy, as if the person who says it is clever. Puns are not actually arguments, but what Oubliette said: thinly-veiled insults devoid of reasoning, and hence relies on pure emotions to try and dissuade or hurt someone (which usually simply backfires, since mockery isn't compelling).

Puns can serve a purpose to convey a message: in fact, my user name (adamah) is the word for 'ground' in Hebrew, the first man's name is 'Adam' (also generic name for mankind), and the word for 'blood' is 'dam'. That inter-relationship based on word-play actually serves a point to convey a certain message in Genesis: animal blood is NOT to be eaten, but is to be poured on the ground, the same ground (dust) from which Adam was made. Spilling of human blood pollutes the ground, where God was forced to curse the source of life for humans, making it unproductive and even poisoning the land (eg Cain spilling Abel's blood, or unpunished murders in Israel threatened all inhabitants of the land with exile). Of course, God's cursing of the ground ceased after the Flood, since God came up with a better way to address bloodshed: God gave Noah permission to enforce blood-shed by demanding the killer pay with their blood (lex talionis).

However, that relationship is completely lost to most Xians, since most don't read Hebrew, and miss the pun.

Some other vestiges of puns can still be seen in the Bible today in English, where the intent was more to insult, eg the name 'Babel' (as in 'Tower of Babel') is word-play on the name of their captives, the Babylonians, so the pun was a way to passively-aggressively get back at their captors (and even the word "babble" retains the meaning of talking incoherently).

But if you still think a pun is persuasive after leaving JWs, then it probably explains why you were a JW, in the first place: you're likely the kind of person who makes decisions driven by emotions, not logic; worse, you may not even understand the difference, but tells themselves they're completely rational (self-delusion is brutal).

Adam

12

Update on Ark Encounter (YEC theme park): creationist Ken Ham offering junk bonds

by adamah in

seems the ark encounter project is having a hard time raising funds, but ken ham doesn't miss a chance to bash obamacare to help raise funds.

ham is pushing junk bonds to help finance the project:.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/11/ark_encounter_finances_obamacare_sank_ken_ham_s_creationist_theme_park.html.

adamah

It's somewhat paradoxical, since the entire premise of the theme park is God's upcoming punishment of the World; however, he's selling bonds, which mature in the future.

I suspect he's trying to sell them to "true believers" who view their purchase as something they do in the name of God, and possibly buying "brownie points" which help assure their salvation. He's selling family admission packages for "charter lifetime boarding passes" for ONLY $140/month:

http://arkencounter.com/

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

jgnat said-

Wouldn't perfect mercy mean a suspended sentence for hitler? Apologies for playing the hitler card.

If Hitler pulled a deathbed conversion and accepted Jesus as his personal savior, per Xian theology, he is in Heaven. Oh, all 6 million of the Jews he killed? They went to Hell, if they didn't similarly accept Jesus as their savior and messiah before their deaths.

So Hitler's in good company in Heaven, since mass murderers Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer BOTH reportedly repented before their executions, so they should be in Heaven.

Most Xians just don't want to think about the nonsense they spiel on about (and others demand tolerance of such irrationality), since it doesn't stand up to slightest bit of scrutiny; Xian theology actually describes absolutely perverse inverted justice (which they sweep under the rug by calling it "perfect").

Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining: didn't we ALL have enough of that kind of nonsense of being lied to with the JWs? I guess not, since some still want to chase that comforting lie, despite the cost to society for their desire to cling to Bronze-Age mythology.

Adam

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

The typical response of God (and hence, believers) when challenged on anything questioning his judgment is that witnessed by Job: "Where were YOU when I....?, AKA "appeal to Divine Authority"

The believer usually retreats to a position of, "But who are we, as mere mortals with our limited perspective, to question the wisdom of God...." AKA "appeal to ignorance".

Take a look at the picture again:

Lady Justice is blind-folded, which prevents her from basing her decision on outward appearances, but ONLY by relying on the competing claims (evidence) presented by each side in order to determine the verdict of the case (as reflected in the balancing scale with the two plates she's holding). But notice how Lady Mercy is NOT blind-folded, but is whispering into Lady Justice's ear in an attempt to bias the outcome.

In modern legal systems, 'mercy' primarily enters the picture when it comes to sentencing AFTER the accused is found guilty (eg sentencing to life imprisonment vs death penalty would be considered showing mercy). HOWEVER, that situation doesn't apply to God, since the Bible doesn't paint a pictures of mortals being judged and sentenced to Heaven OR Hell as a reversible decision (eg being sent to Hell for 2 yrs, and then going to Heaven). So in the ONLY situation that most believers are concerned with (the eternal fate of their souls), there is NO scriptural justification for the possibility of mercy being shown, since the judgment stands for an eternity, is irreversible, and since the outcome is a binary (two-tailed: Heaven OR Hell) the punishment OR reward is already pre-determined. The justice doesn't ALLOW for mercy, since the punishment is pre-determined.

That ONLY applies to Bible God: if you don't like it, feel free to dream up your own version of God, since many 'believers' do create God in their image.

Besides, anyone who actually reads the Bible can see MANY examples where God isn't just or merciful, eg think of Abraham's appealing on behalf of the unknown righteous men of Sodom. Initially, God says he will spare Sodom if 50 righteous men can be found (never-mind the continuity error which completely blows later claims which appear in the Tanakh, pertaining to God's omniscient and omnipresent nature). Abraham bargains with God, and gets him to agree to spare the city if only 10 righteous men can be found.

Think about it: suppose there were NINE (or even ONE) righteous men found in Sodom? Do you think they'd agree that Sodom's destruction at God's hand was "perfect justice" or "perfect mercy", since they were killed and their homes and businesses were destroyed despite their being righteous?

The explanation of course is discussed in the article on Lot found on my blog: when the account was written, the Hebrews believed in the doctrine of shared communal righteousness and/or blame, where entire cities (and in fact, Nations!) were judged as a WHOLE: that's why Jesus later condemned entire towns which rejected his message (and even referred to Sodom when he condemned them).

Only later did Xianity shift to the concept of INDIVIDUAL righteousness being measured when standing before God (which is actually a concept that was used in Egypt two millenia before, where mortals stood before Osiris after their death to have their hearts weighed individually).

http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/weighing_of_the_heart.htm

As usual, the Xian Bible "shot-guns" by making contradictory and competing claims, and then tells believers they're just too stoopid (sic) to figure it out, compared to God Almighty. Some actually believe it, and are dazzled by the BS.

Xianity is a hodge-podge that only results from syncretism (blending) of prior religions: in regards to religion, there is nothing new under the Sun.

Adam

340

Fallacies about Faith

by tec in

jw
friends

peace to you!.

this thread is about false things (some) atheists think theists believe.

this is not a thread about false things that atheists think about theists.

adamah

FHN SAID-

Your use of the word perfect, instead of perfectly, changes the meaning of what Cofty said.

Say what? The first is an adjective, the second is an adverb.

Care to explain what you believe the critical difference in meaning exists between the phrases, 'perfect justice' and 'perfectly just', or is this only a 'distinction without a difference'?

(BTW, it's clear you didn't read the article for which I provided a link...)

Adam

23

Were visiting briefly to try to clear up a misconception about Genesis 1:1

by suavojr in

this to me is simply unreal!

imagine having to answer the following:.

km 2014. awake march 2014. were visiting briefly to try to clear up a misconception that many have about this bible verse.

adamah

suavojr said- This is simply one of the most ignorant arguments that I have read in a while. Can you imagine starting a conversation like this with someone like cofty? lol

Yup, but what do you think all of those people who said, "No thanks, I'm not interested" were actually thinking? Most of them wrote us off even before we got to part about reading Genesis 1:1, since they didn't want to waste their time explaining what we wouldn't even begin to understand without doing some heavy-duty study (and I'm not referring to Bible study aids such as reading the WT and Awake).