say it ain’t so!
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in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
The entire idea of God's Empire to rule from an invisible otherworldly "heaven" is contrary to Scripture.
The Son of Man ist the Coming One. He will be with mankind.
The hundred and fourty-four thousand are his chosen ones out of mankind to become priests for reconcilation and rule for justice. (Cf. Acts: Simon to Jerusalem, and Letter to Romans: concerning the whole creation)
jw (as a church) are mistaken, misleading and irrelevant.
say it ain’t so!
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in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?
The doctrine in itself was always erroneous and counter Scripture.
He, John, heard twelve tribes named and their number: Israel as counted by God.
After that he sees: a huge crowd of people from all nations and tribes and languages and dialects that he (and no man) was able to count.
They are the same. They are (in) the Holy of the Temple, ΕΝ ΤΟ ΝΑΟΣ, in the dwelling of God, regarded like Israel, by appearance from all the tribes (!) and all nations.
Messiah is Ό ΕΡΧΟΜΕΝΟΣ, the Coming One. He will be with our humankind as the Son of Man.
We who shall be with him will be like trees planted along streams of water giving leaves that wither not for healing to the nations, for freedom of creation to be children of God.
The number is the ΠΛΕΡΟΜΑ pleroma a man named Paul (Shaŭl) was hinting at in one of his letters, and a Shimon (Petros) might have been estimating at when he addressed Jerusalem to return so that the Heavens would return her Messiah who they had cut off from the Land (that was his own) and then He would restore its wealth and its beauty and its life anew.
peace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
Hi!
The strangely later so-called church-fathers certainly had their own little agendas, some better
, some worse. As far as I understand Paul or John, they based their critique against 'gnostics' mainly on the ground of their ethics. The gnostic doctrines depreciated the physicality of life and death of this man, whom we deem to be the Christ of God. They fancied their ideas more than the bodily existence (of their fellow humans as well), not caring about their own and others' humanity, out of a contempt that was fuelled by haughty disregard for the actual perceivable reality.
there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
There is no need to assume Iesous would have followed a categorizing of scriptures to the effect of discounting the book of that one he - in the memory of his disciples - he had termed a prophet.
the last time i went to the kh was memorial 2013 and the elder giving the talk.
spooke of "two hopes" for christians...i sat there and wondered how did i. ever believe such a thing!..its not even in the bible!!!
!that did it for me!.
The hope is in God, therefore from heaven, or heavenly. And the Coming One is the Son of Man. If coming, though, there will also be a remaining, as the scripture states: He will be with humankind, and we shall be his peoples.
The others of his disciples he would also bring in, were we from the nations. Regarded as though we are Israel, his royal and holy tribes, remaining and growing in Him.
Neither Him nor the Father we have seen. Our trust suffices, sustained we don't know how.
peace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
Good and valuable thoughts in this discussion. I would love to contribute, if I could. I wait and listen.
the last days were about the destruction of jerusalem and the temple in the 1st centruy.
the messiah was talking to those who asked the question , he replied tot hem and did not lie or mislead.he told them not us that soem would still be alive when he returned.
they fully expected it andwere waiting.he did not lie .he cmae back for his chosen ones and took them back where they serve in the kingdom .most of the apocolyptic language used were symbolic metephors randt akenform the old testamant.
@ EndOfMysteries
Interesting posts. Enjoyed to read from you. :-)
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i would have to say that ray franz was the biggest influence for me.. when i first got on this board, a poster by the name of james, a former bethelite and organization heavy, helped me understand a lot of the inner workings in the upper echelons of the society.. .
and of course, farkel's common sense approach was (usually) helpful..
My favourite Apostate was Paul. He helped me to see the ungodliness in being nice and smooth and corruptly not standing for freedom and truth. The prophets were dissenters. Christ aggressively exposed the falsehood and hypocrisy of leaders of religion.
Uprightness is sought for, not partialism.
The kingdom of God requires more of a human than religion teaches: to become helper and shepherd of a new humankind in receiving the grand promises, of which the holy writings as the hearts and hopes of sensible and feeling humans are filled with. If there were not such hope in us, I believe we would not be able to live on like we do.
I may be wrong, but trust that God and his Christ are not.
In fact, I hesitate only a little to say that the Father as the Son abstain and stand apart (apo-state) from most business that is being termed religion, church or organisation (however spiritual their claims may be). Of course, God's spirit needs not separate but vindicates and wins over any falsehood.
peace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
Zound
I can well appreciate your objection. I was trying to connect some thoughts I derived from scripture in response to the initial question. In my view, all things including us come from God and exist through and by God. Then all thinking humans have faith, because all reality is from the One we live by, and Christ being the all-uniting.
The end of it, according to holy writing, is God being all in everyone. This way putting an end to all separation and distinction and ranking and hatred, love being the all-remaining force and concept.
And my thought was, that this is what we are made to after we suffered and endured the enmity stemming from mistrust, fear, and jealousy among us humans.
Each of us is wonderful enough that quite a measure of trust in the good seems justified to me.
In fact, the good is much more amazing (and trustworthy) than what may be hurtful and terrifying. That is what faith and trust is about. (Of course there are zillions of other tracks of thought we can follow, all being right and perhaps better than mine.)
peace!.
you have stated (and others have agreed and stated the same) that faith is not based on evidence, or it is not faith to begin with.
may i ask you, then, if you think the apostles and early disciples, who walked with christ, had faith?
The word faith is translated from the Greek pistis (as to believe is from pisteuein). Its core meaning is trust (and trusting). We trust in someone who we have experienced as trustworthy. So trust builds on experience and is a decision to grow into a relationship or even oneness of mutual connectedness. The experience of life and hope and trust in good things to come is one we all have. We breathe, we drink, and eat, feel joy and contentment.
There is no knowing of God nor image beyond ourselves, what we know within, and aside from our fellow humans and what we perceive from them. If we live by God, all that touches, moves, and fills us, if we perceive it as true, is from God, even such things as the nourishment from the milk of the mother for a little child. All that we are is from what we are made up and built from, growing in trust or mistrust, depending on what we got and how we weigh it.
The disciples perceived and came to know and trusted. We all do rely not only on our own but also on the experience of humans we come to know. We observe and listen and perceive through them as we do first through ourselves. It is all by God as God is perceived by the Word, that is Christ, the Entrusted One by God, and we to be with him along with all trusting and having trusted and come to trust in the love that surpasses and is far and beyond all religion that is merely human in the narrow and - sad to say - corrupt sense of the word.
