Posts by Abaddon

43

Questions Surrounding Evolution

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

questions surrounding evolution regarding this subject, the thought in mind is to ask.

some pertinent questions regarding evolution in .

it must be strongly emphasized that there is no wish.

Abaddon

Hi QC, how's life?

Sure Steven. I find the aggregation of information by dna and genetic material absolutely incredible and an example of perfect design - a systm of storing information in temporary storage, passing that information on while gathering new information about the environment, sorting it, discarding the useless, storing the potentially useful and utilising a switching mechanism to select different bits of information to turn on and off during the life of a single organism and also over the span of the species.

It is also the logical nature of a system of inheritance that would develop under evolution by natural selection, as sytems of inhertance that were not so suitable for an idealised system of inheritance would have less inhertants, quand erat demonthingdom.

If we say (for the sake of argument) an idealised system of inheritance would exist EITHER by design OR as this is the one you would logicaly find in any 1,000 of millions year old macro-ecosystem, then we have to look at the likihood of the preconditions of each of those cases existing.

Excluding special pleading and magical thinking (my daughter was a great one at special pleading for the existence of fairies, as she maintained (with great determination) a conceit they DID long after she knew they didn't), we have;

A: The God-did-it hypothesis;

The existence of a complex entity that must have needed and equally complicated designer, reducio ad absurdo
The existence of a complex entity arrived at by naturalistic abogenesis and evolution.

B: The Abio hypothesis;

Things are as they are because of naturalistic abogenesis and evolution.

A both A2 and B1 require the same process to take place, we can assume their probability is the same.

The probability of A1 is determined by calculating the liklihood of an infinate train of complex designers. This is incalculable and total speculation.

<aybe in the next twenty years we'll have figured out how abiogensis happened. That would mean a pretty accurate theory of abiogensis and evolution will have taken less than 200 years to develop.

Religion has had 200,000 years (or 6,000 or so, whatever) and still has not a chance of developing a theory of god.

I feel B1 and A2 are far more likely than A1. You don't, It's a wonderful world.

The selection of that information is alongside a set of external rules that have no corrolary in the biological world and these are:

1/ Pass on the stored information (there are no non-biological systems in the universe that we(I?) know of that obey this law bar things we have actually built - in fact on a galactic scale black holes seem to theoretically erase information before popping cleaned matter back out)

2/ Seek to consciously live and unconsciously die (short term selfish survival against long term suicidal aging)

3/ Seek symbiotic relationships either with similar information or useful but unrelated information carriers (sex through to mitochondria and the cell)

4/To seek consciousness (us)- there has been an inexorable progression of less and less effecient systems as though the end goal was always the main goal (in other words the cost to pass on information for a complex organism is huge and inefficient until you achieve consciousness through evolution at which point the advantage becomes worth the past billion years) If consciousness and hence the ability to process information at an incredible level - we can conceive another dimension(time) - is also just another happy coincidence of the inexorable nature of evolution then we have something arguably much more significany and fortuitous than the first life form containing fortunate information that is encoded to keep going.

You can bite my nutt all you like and quote scientists to 'prove' all this as cr*p but that beloved occam's razor points to design for me at each and every step of the way.

15

The Creator's Creator...

by dorayakii in

i have several ways of stating and demonstrating what is essentially the same point.... 1. jws often deflected the question, "what is the purpose of life?

", by stating that our purpose it is to serve the creator... but, what is the purpose of the creator himself?

must we not apply the same criteria to the creator as we do to ourselves?

Abaddon

creationists would argue that God did not begin to exist, he merely... exists

Yeah, and I would argue that's a load of bollocks, or "argumentum ad testiculi".

Hell, they'd figured out it was an invalid argument 2,500 years ago, if not before.

Even cosmologists recognise that 'because' is an unsatisfactory claim, and have hypotheses to explain how things came to be from 'nothing' which will possibly be testable given particle accelerators of sufficient size.

I look forward to some theists still claiming it's all impossible without god; 'cause even if they DO create artifical universes, there will still be those clinging to the feet of the bronze-age goatherd.

The 'classical' theistic approach is simply lazy; "yeah, god was there for always 'cause I say so, 'cause other people have said so, so it must be true, init?

I mean, at least use some fricking imagination;

"The god of our universe was the end product of 5,000 billion years of evolutionary development in another Universe that collapsed in on itself. Our god was sufficiently developed to not be reabsorbed into the Universe upon its colapse and upon the re-expansion of the Universe we now inhabit controlled the naturalistic processes of the next Universes expansion to its own ends so as to create life in its own image."

Show me that written on a 5,000 year old Egyptian monument in hieroglyphics and I would be seriously impressed...

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

Abaddon

Czar

What has my birthday (9/12) got to do with anything? Please start your cultural assasination by at least getting the date right...

Do I hate all Muslims? Well, considering that I think their

Ah. 1 billion people. Pretty big 'their'. I suppose that is 'their' as in 'they' and 'them', that wonderful term used to reduce people to a generic target group. Any other sweeping generalisations you wish to make? Any idiot (as you show below, you are far from any idiot) knows Islam is only 20% Arabic, and the violent ones are a small minority of Arab and non-Arab Muslims. But just like the Nazi's regarded the Jews as the same no matter what they did or where they came from, do you also regard Muslims the same no mattr what they do or where they come from...?

only chance of avoiding being completely genocided by every OTHER religion is to adopt a modern government, and I am actively trying to work towards that end, then NO, I don't hate muslims.

Yah are "actively trying to work towards that end", how, do please us tell Mother Theresa. By making sweeping generalisations? Oooo, any more help please!!! Go on, if blow your own trumpet, let us at least hear what you're playing... what do you do then? Make WP munitons?

If they

Yup, I knew you were talking about 'them', the refuge of the wooly-minded diatribe...

don't change, and quickly, what do you think will happen to them?

According to you people will kill Muslims in an act of genocide. Which is an oxymoron (no, not you, what you said, you're only halfway to being an oxymoron), as Islam is not a religion of one distinct racial group, thus 'genocide' is really not an appropriate term. But considering the sloppy carelessness of your 'they' I'm not suprised about it spreading through your post further...

Considering France's amazing difficulties with its pampered Muslim youth,

I think 'pampered Muslim youth' is probably as accurate as your 'them' and your 'genocide'... please, tell me how pampered they are. I hear they are so pampered they cannot get jobs unless they hide the ethnicity of their name, even if they are more qualified than European applicants. That must be because all the nasty racists want the Muslims to have it easy and be pampered on state hand-outs... and racists get SUCH a bad rap normally!! And there they are making sure young Muslims get pampered!

I am not willing to consider hosting millions of bearded, turbaned, burqaed refugees in MY backyard.

Oh my god, do you know what you sound like? Turbaned??!!?? I think yah mean Seikhs yah great idiot.

Turbans are not really any more to do with Islam than the veil is. It's an item of culltural clothing (just like the veil) the wearing of which is not mentioned as a requirement in the Qu'ran (just like the veil is not mentioned as a reqiuirement). By all means dispute this one with me, LOL.

So what about the intelligence failures?

I think you can tell us a hell of a lot about intelligence failures. What about them Einstein?

Even if somebody HAD put all the pieces together, somebody like you would have protested any action taken as "racist" and "fascist" and "profiling" or whatever Leftist claptrap you want to call it.

I suppose you supply the far-right bullcrap?

We improved our national intelligence system

... but you were on holiday so missed out?

As for White Phosphorus, it's a bad way to go, but we all die badly.

You first. As you're so sanguine about being WP'd to death, lead us by example with your "kinder, gentler machine gun hand." You evade the whole point; the use of WP when civilians can be effected. As far more civilians died from Israeli action than terrorists, I think we can safely assume more civilians died from WP than terrorists, unless the Israeli's only aim well when using WP???

And just in case you think you don't have slaves working for you (as all empires require slavery in some form) - have you bought anything made in Indonesia lately? Or China, Taiwan, or even your morning coffee grown in Latin America? Any plastic in your house? That's made from cheap petroleum, you know.

Look 'slave' up. There IS slavery around, REAL slavery. What you're talking about is many people working for a good wage (in their country) and far too many people working for an inadequate wage due to the lack of fair trade. But your use of words is mind-beggaringly inaccurate so another mis-used term is no surprise.

But this is my last comment on the subject. All I'm saying is that everybody on this board is wallowing in the wealth of the Western dominance, and I at least am honest enough to work to perpetuate it.

Oh, no Czar, please say more. It makes my day when someone shows themselves up like you do. And what do you DO exactly to perpetuate Western dominance? I'm dying to know...

15

The Creator's Creator...

by dorayakii in

i have several ways of stating and demonstrating what is essentially the same point.... 1. jws often deflected the question, "what is the purpose of life?

", by stating that our purpose it is to serve the creator... but, what is the purpose of the creator himself?

must we not apply the same criteria to the creator as we do to ourselves?

Abaddon

Ian

I have a wide set of skills to avert boredom. In addition to being able to argue with myself I can also flirt with walls.

11

French government's good example: being tough on cults

by greendawn in

jw
friends

about a year ago a collection of sects that included the jws demanded from the supreme court in paris to outlaw unadfi an organisation for the protection of the family and individual against the activities of such cultic organisations.

what a cheek they had.. the court rejected the demand and imposed on each of these sects to pay 10 000 euro to unadfi for damage caused to its reputation and 5 000 euro each for court costs.

also to publish at their own cost the above decision in 8 newspapers to make it known that unadfi was innocent of the accusations brought against it.

Abaddon

France certainly is a secular state, but it's still a pretty Roman Catholic country... however, they figured out centuries ago to keep god-bothering out of affairs of state (thus freedom FROM religion).

However there is a presiding cultural assumption tha people are Roman Catholic, even though this has a very large NOMINAL tacked on in front of most.

Whilst people can pretend wine and biscuits magically becomes flesh and blood, that condoms damn you to hell, and that the Pope is inflatable (yes, I know, I'm being funny), people beleiving that using blood make god angry or that E-meters are a good way of resolving psychological conflict is viewed differently. It's not 'normal', as 'normal' is RC..

Obviously there is a difference in HOW people come about beliefs that splits of common-or-garden religion from cults. However, it's not black and white, it's a graduated spectrum and some RC's are just as bound by cult like conditioning as some cultists are.

Now wearing a head-scarf (not the veil, which is as much a statement of political identity as a Swastika armband or Confedrate flag) is banned in French schools along with 'large crosses'. Apparently whilst you can wear small crosses you can't wear small head-scarfs. So it ain't all roses in la belle France.

France along with Germany and Austria (both of whom should know better) are the chief opposers to one action which will probably mark a favourable watershed in Christo-Islamic relations; the entry of Turkey into the EU.

This is again based on the assumption that 'Europe is Christian'.

No, actually, most of Europe is more intreseted in a lie in on Sunday, or going to Ikea, than in worshipping god, actually...

As Turkish people are as for lie-in's on the weekend and consumer spending as your next EU citizen, I don't see why they shouldn't join once they've made a few essential human rights consessions.

If the USA follows suit with the human rights consessions we might even let you guys join...

15

The Creator's Creator...

by dorayakii in

i have several ways of stating and demonstrating what is essentially the same point.... 1. jws often deflected the question, "what is the purpose of life?

", by stating that our purpose it is to serve the creator... but, what is the purpose of the creator himself?

must we not apply the same criteria to the creator as we do to ourselves?

Abaddon

Well, as there is no theory of origin for god or the 'original' ID-er/s, I don't expect a great wave of responses from supporters of such hypotheses.

Having to start off a refutation of the point dorayakil makes with a logical fallacy isn't very appealing.

"Yes, well, WE obviously need a designer, as complex things need designers, but OUR designer although complex doesn't need its own designer because of BLAH" is an argument using special pleading (the BLAH), i.e. something along the lines of "closed doors need to be opened in order to pass through their doorway, but the first closed door didn't need opening in order to pass through its doorway".

But believers in creo and ID are honest people. They genuinely believe the special pleadings they use to explain why god/ID-er doesn't need a god/ID-er are valid. Thus when the evo brigade go "huh?" they get all upset as they take it personally... it's not about your personal worth good people, it's about the logical worth of the what you believe in.

21

WHAT SENTENCE WOULD YOU GIVE THIS CREEP?

by Mary in

jw
friends

jeff skilling, one of the top sleazebags who screwed thousands of people out of their jobs, pension and livelihood at enron, will be sentenced tomorrow.

what sentence would you give this creep if it were up to you?.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061022/ts_nm/enron_skilling_dc_2.

Abaddon

I think "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers, where is the peck of pickled peppers that Peter Piper picked" or "I'm not the pheasent plucker I'm the pheasent pluckers son, and I'll be plucking pheasents 'till the pheasent plucking's done" would be good sentences to give him... recited continously with electric shocks to the balls if he went too slow or made mistakes... but seriously?

Total loss of all financial assets. Sentenced to 25 years in the Customer Service department of an Alabama KMart, his wages 100% with-held, his means of sustenance provided by handing in large vouchers (3 ft by 6 ft) at food stores, his lodgings a room in the local jail with a picture window fitted to the outside wall.

That would be a bit of a deterent.

3

Can guesses be termed and sold as "religion" with good results?

by The Dragon in

seems answers are an "end" of sorts to both guesses and problems.. i have recently came to the conclusion that "religion" in general is nothing more than self exalted leaders "guesses" into an unknown subject...that they try to sell and term as "religion".

with no good or valid argument to discredit this line of thinking...i stand behind it.. how is a person(s) bearing answers seen to those seeking answers?

how would that person(s) be seen in the eyes of those who have power and authority over others who accept their "guesses" as answers or "truth"?.

Abaddon

The Dragon

I have recently came to the conclusion that "religion" in general is nothing more than self exalted leaders "guesses" into an unknown subject...that they try to sell and term as "religion". With no good or valid argument to discredit this line of thinking...I stand behind it.

It seems religion stemmed from attempts by humans to explain their existence and the environment around them.

The evolution of the human mind resulted in a pyschology that allowed certain of the ideas developed in trying to explain the environment and existence to take a deep root in human society. Our evolutionary ancestors were more likely to survive if they were capable of forming strong social groups with common values. These same traits proved to be fertile ground for religious thought.

Even after religious stories of origin no longer 'answer' questions but actually (due to their primative simplicity) create questions, and after there are perfectly good non-faith based theories regarding our existence and the environment, the same stories made by bronze-age goatherds are seen as real by many as the ability in humans to hold beliefs regardless of their reality so profound.

But how would God feel about that? (Without starting a new religion/guess about it)

God is one of the above mentioned primative attempts to explain the environment and existence. There might be entities as part of this iteration of an utterly naturalistic Universe as we are we would term 'god' in some way, but not old blokey with a beard and a bad/good book. Likewise, there might be some transcendent quality of intelligent life en mass that has certain gold-like characteristics. But again, not blokey with beard and good/bad book.

One can't disprove god, just be fairly certain about which ideas of god are utter poppy-cock as opposed to un-refuted hypothoising

One can be fairly certain that ALL religons are just melanges of personal opinion collected over the life-time of the religion and asociated ancestor-traditions, presented as a cohesive whole. The more dogmatic a religious person is the more they are worshipping their own opinion.

Funnily enough, both Jesus and Mohammed were very down on the creation of rules beyond what they gave (which they saw as given by god) and term them either 'hypocrites' or 'idolators'.

Thus even the origins (historic or otherwise) of major religions see that religious scruple is mopstly personal opinion

45

Intellectual bullies- have you come across them?

by dido in

jw
friends

i recently posted on a thread and couldn`t believe the amount of intellectual bullies on there.

i was a jw for 25 years, left school 35 years ago and they expected me to know all the info on evolution, and because i didn`t i`m `stupid`.

i prefer to believe in creation, but it is obviously too simple an explanation for them.

Abaddon

dido

My advice is to quit whilst you are no further behind than you already are.You seem to call people intellectual bullies if they;

Point out you really don't know what you are talking about
Don't symathise with the predicatment you got yourself into

But should it come as any surprise that someone who admits they don't know much about evolution (yet decides it is wrong anyway and refuses to even consider studying the subject) should be equally incapable of admitting their errors or taking personal responsibility in other areas of their life? I love the way you're SO concieted you act like the other thread cannot exist without your great mind taking part in it...

As I have more chance of converting my cat to vegetarianism than of having you accept your attitude sucks I won't bother paddling in your whirlpool of self-obsession unless I can make a joke I find really amusing...

45

Intellectual bullies- have you come across them?

by dido in

jw
friends

i recently posted on a thread and couldn`t believe the amount of intellectual bullies on there.

i was a jw for 25 years, left school 35 years ago and they expected me to know all the info on evolution, and because i didn`t i`m `stupid`.

i prefer to believe in creation, but it is obviously too simple an explanation for them.

Abaddon

dido