here's a good site I think on Islam, which is more from a Christian perspective, though I've read much about Islaam directly.
http://www.islamreview.com
has a really interesting interview with one of the 9/11 hijackers Mums, really shows you the mindset that they are brought up with. frightening.
the Qu'ran I think gets a bit more militant towards the end, and the verses in the forefront that are more peaceable are overridden by these, as there is also a verse that says if there is a contradiction, take what comes last in the Qur'an.
Myxomatosis
Myxomatosis
JoinedPosts by Myxomatosis
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Is the Koran an Inspired Book?
by Happythoughts infrom what i gather--in my opinion--here i go again the book is very negative; it's obsessed with the punishment in the hereafter for the "unbelievers" (an oft cited word in the book) and speaks of them being : chastised in the fire.
" i lost count of the number of times this phrase is used.
the book does not present a loving god--but a vindictive harsh one, more concerned with punishment than life and forgiveness.
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Myxomatosis
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The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict - Josh Macdowel
by yxl1 inafter spending my lunch break chatting with some born again christians who were street witnessing in my area, they suggested i read this book.
they said it would answer all the criticisms i highlighted in the bible.
has anyone read it?
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Myxomatosis
I've read some of the first one "ETDAV" as we have it.
Josh, like Lee Strobel author of "The case for Christ" (which you might also wish to check out) was setting out to disprove Christianity when he started investigating (prompted probably by annoying born agains, who he wanted to sock it to.)
It's quite technical, but I think he really does his research, and it is not about creationism, it's about Jesus Christ.
I certainly would recommend you read it and draw your own conclusions.
I understand why you are anti-biblical. I would be too I believe if I had been in a false religion who used the Bible to control and frighten.
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The Star, God's Plan or Malicious Plot of Satan?
by ignorance is strength ini'm not talking about stars in general; such a subject about stars in general would be ridiculous.
i'm specifically talking about the star that the three magi saw that led them to jesus.
the wt holds that this was a malicious plot of satan's to bring jesus to herod.
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Myxomatosis
lol, I remember first reading that and the pasta I was eating falling back onto my plate out of sheer disbelief. how idiotic. here's a site addressing this.
it's just a pretend discussion.
http://www.jwinfoline.com/Documents/Christmas/Is_Christmas_pagan.htm -
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WATCHTOWER IS DUMBING DOWN
by integ infrom what i've noticed lately, the wts seems to be explaining everything away with a new approach; that of dumbing everything down to just a couple of key points in their everchanging, contradictory, edicts and doctrine.
they seem to be avoiding 'deeper' scriptural interpretations that invariably get them into trouble with people who actually don't take everything the fds say as absolute truth, and instead are feeding the rank and file and the "doubters" that dare question the changing doctrine, with a couple of what they feel are key "truths".. 1) who else is using god's name today?
2) who else are doing "god's work" of preaching the good news of the kingdom?.
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Myxomatosis
sorry for the Bible haters out their (which I understand, being sickened nearly physically when I read Scriptures when used by the WT)
It would seem that the 'name' that one is supposed to be *ummm* using if one happens to accept the New Covenant made through Christ (in other words a Christian) that the name you should be using is not the name Yahweh ( not 'Jehovah' which I have to admit, I have a very great aversion to.) but Yeshua Hamasiach, or, Jesus Christ. Even in their New World translation, it is clear that Yeshua inherited His Father's name (aka, His whole being)
Hebrews 1:4 tells us in the New World Translation, "So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." Jesus inherited his name from his father
for a bit more on the ridiculousness of the Watch Tower crying foul about Jehovah
http://jwinfoline.com/Documents/Jehovahs_name/who_removed_jehovah_from_nt.htm
soo...erm. it's all rather silly. Jesus never was recorded using the NAME Yahweh, but 'Father'. interesting. Not that I have disrespect for the name Yahweh, on the contrary. It is just the Watch Tower trying to create a corner on the market, when most Christians are aware of the OT 'names' of G-d (El Elyon (G-d most High) El Shaddai (G-d Almighty) Elohim, Adonai, El, YWHH, and yes, Jehovah)
This is a simple matter of a superiority ploy. We know God's name, we share God's name, and you don't, so nyah!
Interesting, Paul preached Christ (crucified.)
anyways, "all fullness of deity dwells in bodily form" says Paul re: Christ.
sorry to put a bit of Biblical commentary up. they've got it all bunkered, Biblically too.
regards,
Myxomatosis
*why do I have to feel so tongue tied
why do I have to feel so stupid*
-Radiohead
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John 1:1 for nonbelievers.....
by logansrun ini've often felt that the most objective person in a situation is the one who has no stake in the outcome.
this holds true to religious issues as well.
we all know freddie franz translated john 1:1 as "the word was [a] god" and the rest of the christian world flew through the roof.
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Myxomatosis
Hello,
thought I'd clear this up.
Panda says: So while Ireneaus accepted John into the Bible canon he did not accept the above interpretation of John 1. If we consider as Ptolemy did that "Wisdom ...participated with God," that is the primal Father or Silence needed the divine energies of Wisdom to create. But then again even Ireneaus admits that "before the world ...the unknown Source " was un-nameable, and un-named "since there are no words to describe this source."
Myx: Wrong! Irenaeus quoted John 1:1 exactly as it is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
Remember, Irenaeus is a disciple of Polycarp, who himself was a disciple of John the Baptist... pretty cool
ch. 11, book 3 Against Heresis: Irenaeus quotes John, The Word, being Monogenes with the Father, was God. The creator off all things visible, invisible, including Archangels. :)
"...and that Monogenes was the beginning, but Logos was the true son of Monogenes; and that this creation to which we belong was not made by the primary God, but by some power lying far below Him, and shut off from communion with the things invisible and ineffable. The disciple of the Lord therefore desiring to put an end to all such doctrines, and to establish the rule of truth in the Church, that there is one Almighty God, who made all things by His Word, both visible and invisible; showing at the same time, that by the Word, through whom God made the creation, He also bestowed salvation on the men included in the creation; thus commenced His teaching in the Gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.122 What was made was life in Him, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not."123 "All things," he says, "were made by Him; "therefore in "all things" this creation of ours is [included], for we cannot concede to these men that [the words] "all things" are spoken in..."
Against Heresis Book 3 ch. 8
"If, then, he had not pointed out Him who binds and spoils his goods, but had merely spoken of him as being strong, the strong man should have been unconquered. But he also subjoined Him who obtains and retains possession; for he holds who binds, but he is held who is bound. And this he did without any comparison, so that, apostate slave as he was, he might not be compared to the Lord: for not he alone, but not one of created and subject things, shall ever be compared to the Word of God, by whom all things were made, who is our Lord Jesus Christ."
ch. 8 prt. 3
Jesus is the creator, and the Word, that is God, (John 1:3, Colossians)
"But the things established are distinct from Him who has established them, and what have been made from Him who has made them. For He is Himself uncreated, both without beginning and end, and lacking nothing. He is Himself sufficient for Himself; and still further, He grants to all others this very thing, existence; but the things which have been made by Him have received a beginning. But whatever things had a beginning, and are liable to dissolution, and are subject to and stand in need of Him who made them, must necessarily in all respects have a different term [applied to them], even by those who have but a moderate capacity for discerning such things; so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator."
Irenaeus, as one example of many, identifies the Son as God (and all other "gods" such as in Psalm 82 elsewhere in his books, he calls false.)
ch. 9, prt 3
"For inasmuch as the Word of God was man from the root of Jesse, and son of Abraham, in this respect did the Spirit of God rest upon Him, and anoint Him to preach the Gospel to the lowly. But inasmuch as He was God, He did not judge according to glory, nor reprove after the manner of speech. For "He needed not that any should testify to Him of man,84 for He Himself knew what was in man."85
The way Irenaeus expands on the Word (who he identifies, as John did, as Jesus) is rather fascinating. :::
From Irenaeus against heresis (mostly the Gnostic teacher Valentinus).From looking at the heresies themselves it is clear that the heretics derived their doctrines from different titles of God and Christ,like LOGOS,MONOGENES,CHRIST,...etc. -every name they use is a Greek term taken out of context to name a character in their heretical writings.But Irenaeus defeats every heresy with the truth. Such as the following.
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Chapter VI-The Holy Ghost, Throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, Made Mention of No Other God or Lord, Save Him Who is the True God.
1. Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God-both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father. And again: "God stood in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods." He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. For she is the synagogue of God, which God-that is, the Son Himself-has gathered by Himself. Of whom He again speaks: "The God of gods, the Lord hath spoken, and hath called the earth." Who is meant by God? He of whom He has said, "God shall come openly, our God, and shall not keep silence; " that is, the Son, who came manifested to men who said, "I have openly appeared to those who seek Me not." But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."
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One thing of extreme importance to note in this. When it speaks of the Son talking to Abraham here it is referring to Genesis 18.
And in Genesis 18 it is Jehovah that appears to Abraham and talks to him. Kinda interesting I'd say.
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More specific to John 1:1 I would say is Book II ch.28 - Re: LOGOS
"Ye seem to affirm gravely and honestly enough that ye believe in God; but then, as ye are utterly unable to reveal any other God, ye declare this very Being in whom ye profess to believe, the fruit of defect and the offspring of ignorance. Now this blindness and foolish talking flow to you from the fact that ye reserve nothing for God, but ye wish to proclaim the nativity and production both of God Himself, of His Ennoea, of His Logos, and Life, and Christ; and ye form the idea of these from no other than a mere human experience; not understanding, as I said before, that it is possible, in the case of man, who is a compound being, to speak in this way of the mind of man and the thought of man; and to say that thought (ennœa) springs from mind (sensus), intention (enthymesis) again from thought, and word (logos) from intention (but which logos? for there is among the Greeks one logos which is the principle that thinks, and another which is the instrument by means of which thought is expressed); and [to say] that a man sometimes is at rest and silent, while at other times he speaks and is active. But since God is all mind, all reason, all active spirit, all light, and always exists one and the same, as it is both beneficial for us to think of God, and as we learn regarding Him from the Scriptures, such feelings and divisions [of operation] cannot fittingly be ascribed to Him. For our tongue, as being carnal, is not sufficient to minister to the rapidity of the human mind, inasmuch as that is of a spiritual nature, for which reason our word is restrained within us, and is not at once expressed as it has been conceived by the mind, but is uttered by successive efforts, just as the tongue is able to serve it.
But God being all Mind, and all Logos, both speaks exactly what He thinks, and thinks exactly what He speaks. For His thought is Logos, and Logos is Mind, and Mind comprehending all things is the Father Himself. He, therefore, who speaks of the mind of God, and ascribes to it a special origin of its own, declares Him a compound Being, as if God were one thing, and the original Mind another. So, again, with respect to Logos, when one attributes to him the third place of production from the Father; on which supposition he is ignorant of His greatness; and thus Logos has been far separated from God. As for the prophet, he declares respecting Him, "Who shall describe His generation? " But ye pretend to set forth His generation from the Father, and ye transfer the production of the word of men which takes place by means of a tongue to the Word of God, and thus are righteously exposed by your own selves as knowing neither things human nor divine."
Against Heresis book 3 ch. 9, prt 1
2. Then again Matthew, when speaking of the angel, says, "The angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in sleep."70 Of what Lord he does himself interpret: "That it may be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, Out of Egypt have I called my son."71 "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us."72 David likewise speaks of Him who, from the virgin, is Emmanuel: "Turn not away the face of Thine anointed. The Lord hath sworn a truth to David, and will not turn from him. Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy seat."73 And again: "In Judea is God known; His place has been made in peace, and His dwelling in Zion."74 Therefore there is one and the same God, who was proclaimed by the prophets and announced by the Gospel; and His Son, who was of the fruit of David's body, that is, of the virgin of [the house of] David, and Emmanuel; whose star also Balaam thus prophesied: "There shall come a star out of Jacob, and a leader shall rise in Israel."75 But Matthew says that the Magi, coming from the east, exclaimed "For we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him; "76 and that, having been led by the star into the house of Jacob to Emmanuel, they showed, by these gifts which they offered, who it was that was worshipped; myrrh, because it was He who should die and be buried for the mortal human met; gold, because He was a King, "of whose kingdom is no end; "77 and frankincense, because He was God, who also "was made known in Judea,"78 and was "declared to those who sought Him not."79
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What are your 5 favorite songs?
by joelbear inmine
imagine by john lennon he went to paris by jimmy buffett raindrops keep falling on my head by b j thomas the voice by the moody blues express yourself by madonna
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Myxomatosis
eeehhh, 7 fav, ok.
1. Radiohead "Let Down"
2. Radiohead "How to disappear completely" "EIIRP"
3. System of a Down "toxicity"
4. Garbage "You look so fine"
5. STP "still remains"
6. Coldplay "don't panic" "the scientist"
7. The Beatles "A day in the life" -
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Personal Testimony of Chris Stire
by Tower Man inhi guys,.
i have a new testimony from an ex-jw on my site.
it's a good one from canada!.
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Myxomatosis
Hi there,
thanks for that!! I really loved it! I'm so pathetic as a Christian, I question so much. I've read so much, but stories like that are so powerful, who couldn't be moved? I always cry when people say they accepted Jesus, esp. when they were in a cult such as JW. just somethin' about me I guess. Again, thanks.
luv
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Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
Hello Gumby,
Gumby: Many believe if Jesus truely existed, he never claimed equality with god or to be him. They feel the church deified jesus as the stories grew and an official messiah was desired.
Myx: I think the history thing has already been done spectacularly on other threads, so I won't get into it. About the church deifying Jesus? errr...no. Jesus did that (have you read any of Polycarp (disciple of John the Baptist) or Ignatius (disciple of Polycarp)?) They and the other early Church Fathers quote the gospels extensively, in their writings, before the Roman empire through Constantine adopted Christianity, you could reconstruct the entire New Testament throughout. This man Jesus, was either Lord, lunatic or liar.
Gumby: Others believe he never existed other than a mythical figure, a spirtitual one, and men LATER penned the gospels AFTER the" letters," and gave Jesus a local fleshly history, born through a virgin woman, he came from heaven............just like the OTHER beliefs in the area at the time Jesus was to have existed. The only difference is, the other beliefs that had many identical characteristics as Jesus...........is these myths were MUCH older.
Myx: Yeah, when I typed in 'pagan view of Christianity' I read alot of it. It would seem to me though, that these people are being incredibly dishonest if you look into it. Here's a site that questions the accusations.
www.heartofisrael.org
very good site
I know you don't believe in Him, but I don't think anyone should listen to the horribly ignorant theories about a reconstruction of pagan myth. It's really sad what they say.
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Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
Hi again Class Avenger,
you said:
So, did the disciples find out Jesus claimed to be God from listening to his preachings?
Myx:
I would first have to say that they believed Him. If the Jews did not believe that Jesus was G-d in Nature, the Son of G-d who had revealed Himself, then there would have had no right to claim salvation through Him, because of these three things
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, and the LORD (YHWH)
and apart from me there is no savior.
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,"that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it."
Is 45:21-"Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me."
Hosea 13:4
"But I am the LORD your G-d,
who brought you out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no G-d but me,
no Savior except me."
Also, "You shall acknowledge NO SAVIOR EXCEPT ME." Obviously the Jews were familiar with this, and now THEY would have been blaspheming the LORD to say what is said about Jesus Christ over and over and over in the New Testament.
I do think that Isaiah 43:11 is a Messianic prophecy, because it says "No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it." And, Jesus says in the New Testament
John 10:28
Jesus speaking
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
Jesus said He was the door that we enter through into the Kingdom of G-d. He said that He was the way, the truth and the life. His apostles said that those "who hath the Son hath life, those who do not have the Son, shall not see life" Both He and they claimed exclusivity for Salvation "The only name under Heaven, given unto men, by which we must be saved" Jesus made it abundantly clear to them apparently.
For a few of these verses that refer to Jesus as the Savior:
John 3:36-"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 10:13-"Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus] will be saved."
John 5:24-"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life."
John 6:47-"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."
Rom 5:11-Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation
Titus 1:3-God our Savior
Titus 1:4-Christ Jesus our Savior
Titus 2:13-looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
Titus 3:4-God our Savior
Titus 3:6-Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1-to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
And it was not only John who said that He was the Creator.
Col 1:15-16-And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born [cp. Ps 89:27, Gen 41:51-52, Jer 31:9] of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him.
Paul says:
Colossians 2:9
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."
The apostles believed because a) He was born from Mary who was a virgin, He fulfilled every Messianic prophecy, He healed, spoke in parables, and raised people from the dead, including Himself, He was crucified taking on the sins of men. So, I believe Jesus made it clear that He was the way, and He fulfilled the Law. Again, if He were not the only salvation, He would have had to have been a madman, He would have had to fool His apostles. They reveal their belief in every word of the New Testament. He is the Creator, He is the Savior, He has always existed.
Did that answer your question?
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Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
Hi Robert,
how you doin?
Rob: The only part of this that has nagged at me is the part about Jesus hiding Himself and "slipping away." He is countering their accusation that He is blaspheming about being God, but instead of them putting down the stones with a "Hmmm, maybe He's right" sort of attitude, Jesus runs away which, in my opinion, leaves the issue a bit unsettled.
Myx: Well, what the hell would you do if someone picked up stones to THROW AT YOUR HEAD! lol, Ok, this is a really good question, I'm not that terrific at Biblical matters, but I'll answer as best I can. Right, so, let's say I was to leave my 19 million dollar mansion (in the core of the earth) and become a bear, cos that's the only thing I can think of. Now, what if those bears knew that there was only One human who's name was Goldilocks, and that that particular human only resided in her 19 million dollar mansion, which was in the middle of the Earth, and had always existed. Goldilocks eternal mansion. These bears honored me, they knew I was very far above them, and among the bears, it would be blasphemy to ever take the great name of Goldilocks, their protector, in vain. Naturally it would be more wrong (and absurd) to claim to BE the great eternal Goldilocks. Ok, now let's say I were to shed my humanly form to come down (er..up) and teach the bears how to make porridge RIGHT. (cos bears, y'know, eat porrige and stuff)
One day after I've been working hard to pound the proper porrige instruction into their heads, I am talking about their great ancestor Yogi. I say I had known him, and say that I was there when he was. Obviously, he would have died a long time ago. Now, they ask me 'how could I have been there when He had been (cos they know only the eternal human in the 19 million dollar mansion could have been around at that time, and NOW) and I told them, 'before Yogi was,I am Goldilocks'. The bears would think that since the Human is far away in the mansion, that this was outright blasphemy on the part of the very ordinary looking bear they saw before them. And it was in their bear charter that anyone who claimed to be equal to the illustrious Goldilocks, that they must immediately drown them in the community death vat of rotting porrige. Do you think that these bears looking at this bear before them would stop to think, especially since there was only one human who lived in the mansion "hmmm, maybe she's telling the truth, maybe she IS Goldilocks"?? Since they would not understand that I truly WAS the Human(in nature and substance), just now in the form and appearance of a bear, but I did, and I knew I was not lying, I would most likely slip away before they had a chance to plunge me into the rotting porrige. And I knew that I had to fulfil my 'mission' of perfecting the recipe before I returned back to my mansion. OOOOOKAY then. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I took all the time to write that so it stays. A more biblical way to answer you would be::
You must understand that as bizarre as it was to the bears that the eternal HUMAN not BEAR who lived in the mansion would ever be 1) in their neck of the woods so to speak 2) being in the likeness of a bear as they are, *in the most bizarre segway ever:* to the Jews, Jesus saying that He was the 'I Am' the 'Ani Hu' and the YHWH of the OT, was utter blasphemy. Once again, I have to quote C.S.
(About G-d)
"..Thirdly, He (G-d) selected one particular people and spent several centuries hammering into their heads what sort of G-d He was--that there was only one of Him and that He cared about right conduct. Those people were the Jews and the Old Testament gives an account of the hammering process.
Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was G-d. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of G-d, or one with G-d: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of G-d. **G-d, in their language, meant the Being outside the world, who made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips."
So, G-d, meaning 'being OUTSIDE the world', and the Jews seeing the very normal looking human Jesus before them, and having laws against blasphemy, I don't believe, would pause for a second to ponder..."hmmmm, what IF?" That would be very un-Jewish at that point.
Another point I could make, is about Jesus in relation to the Jews themselves. The Jews, in large part at that time, and to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah. (though many did accept Him) What must be clear about the Jews are a few words from the prophets concerning them and their acceptance of Jesus when He came:
from John 12:37
THE JEWS CONTINUE IN THEIR UNBELIEF
"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn--and I would heal them."
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him"
What we have here then is perhaps the more Biblical explanation of why the Jews did not stop and think "well, maybe He is.." The Jews were blind. They did not believe in Him. When He claimed what He did, they did not understand, they made ready to stone Him. I think Jesus knew this, He knew the Law and the Prophets, He knew they would react this way. So He slipped away and hid Himself, for He knew His time was to come when He would be taken and nailed to the cross.
Also, I haven't the time to look it up right now, but it says that 'He walked among them, and they did not know Him' or something like that anyway.
Rob: Your post that I exerpted this from was excellent. I appreciated he thoughts contained but what I mention above just seems to be sort of a let down if Jesus had to run intead of the Jews accepting His claim.
Myx: Thanks! I would have to say it is a let down, on the Jews part really. But again, the Jews have not to this day in large part accepted His claim, neither to be the Messiah, or the One and Only Son of G-d. They're still waiting for their Messiah, which, if they had done their math in Daniel, they would KNOW it was Jesus. I'm sure you probably already knew all this. But, they'll have their chance. And, yes, it makes perfect sense, did my reply make a hair of sense?
cheers
Myxomatosis