Hi again Class Avenger,
you said:
So, did the disciples find out Jesus claimed to be God from listening to his preachings?
Myx:
I would first have to say that they believed Him. If the Jews did not believe that Jesus was G-d in Nature, the Son of G-d who had revealed Himself, then there would have had no right to claim salvation through Him, because of these three things
Isaiah 43:11
"I, even I, and the LORD (YHWH)
and apart from me there is no savior.
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,"that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it."
Is 45:21-"Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me."
Hosea 13:4
"But I am the LORD your G-d,
who brought you out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no G-d but me,
no Savior except me."
Also, "You shall acknowledge NO SAVIOR EXCEPT ME." Obviously the Jews were familiar with this, and now THEY would have been blaspheming the LORD to say what is said about Jesus Christ over and over and over in the New Testament.
I do think that Isaiah 43:11 is a Messianic prophecy, because it says "No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it." And, Jesus says in the New Testament
John 10:28
Jesus speaking
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."
Jesus said He was the door that we enter through into the Kingdom of G-d. He said that He was the way, the truth and the life. His apostles said that those "who hath the Son hath life, those who do not have the Son, shall not see life" Both He and they claimed exclusivity for Salvation "The only name under Heaven, given unto men, by which we must be saved" Jesus made it abundantly clear to them apparently.
For a few of these verses that refer to Jesus as the Savior:
John 3:36-"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 10:13-"Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus] will be saved."
John 5:24-"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life."
John 6:47-"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life."
Rom 5:11-Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation
Titus 1:3-God our Savior
Titus 1:4-Christ Jesus our Savior
Titus 2:13-looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
Titus 3:4-God our Savior
Titus 3:6-Jesus Christ our Savior
2 Pet 1:1-to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
And it was not only John who said that He was the Creator.
Col 1:15-16-And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born [cp. Ps 89:27, Gen 41:51-52, Jer 31:9] of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by Him and for Him.
Paul says:
Colossians 2:9
"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."
The apostles believed because a) He was born from Mary who was a virgin, He fulfilled every Messianic prophecy, He healed, spoke in parables, and raised people from the dead, including Himself, He was crucified taking on the sins of men. So, I believe Jesus made it clear that He was the way, and He fulfilled the Law. Again, if He were not the only salvation, He would have had to have been a madman, He would have had to fool His apostles. They reveal their belief in every word of the New Testament. He is the Creator, He is the Savior, He has always existed.
Did that answer your question?
Myxomatosis
Myxomatosis
JoinedPosts by Myxomatosis
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13
Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
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13
Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
Hi Robert,
how you doin?
Rob: The only part of this that has nagged at me is the part about Jesus hiding Himself and "slipping away." He is countering their accusation that He is blaspheming about being God, but instead of them putting down the stones with a "Hmmm, maybe He's right" sort of attitude, Jesus runs away which, in my opinion, leaves the issue a bit unsettled.
Myx: Well, what the hell would you do if someone picked up stones to THROW AT YOUR HEAD! lol, Ok, this is a really good question, I'm not that terrific at Biblical matters, but I'll answer as best I can. Right, so, let's say I was to leave my 19 million dollar mansion (in the core of the earth) and become a bear, cos that's the only thing I can think of. Now, what if those bears knew that there was only One human who's name was Goldilocks, and that that particular human only resided in her 19 million dollar mansion, which was in the middle of the Earth, and had always existed. Goldilocks eternal mansion. These bears honored me, they knew I was very far above them, and among the bears, it would be blasphemy to ever take the great name of Goldilocks, their protector, in vain. Naturally it would be more wrong (and absurd) to claim to BE the great eternal Goldilocks. Ok, now let's say I were to shed my humanly form to come down (er..up) and teach the bears how to make porridge RIGHT. (cos bears, y'know, eat porrige and stuff)
One day after I've been working hard to pound the proper porrige instruction into their heads, I am talking about their great ancestor Yogi. I say I had known him, and say that I was there when he was. Obviously, he would have died a long time ago. Now, they ask me 'how could I have been there when He had been (cos they know only the eternal human in the 19 million dollar mansion could have been around at that time, and NOW) and I told them, 'before Yogi was,I am Goldilocks'. The bears would think that since the Human is far away in the mansion, that this was outright blasphemy on the part of the very ordinary looking bear they saw before them. And it was in their bear charter that anyone who claimed to be equal to the illustrious Goldilocks, that they must immediately drown them in the community death vat of rotting porrige. Do you think that these bears looking at this bear before them would stop to think, especially since there was only one human who lived in the mansion "hmmm, maybe she's telling the truth, maybe she IS Goldilocks"?? Since they would not understand that I truly WAS the Human(in nature and substance), just now in the form and appearance of a bear, but I did, and I knew I was not lying, I would most likely slip away before they had a chance to plunge me into the rotting porrige. And I knew that I had to fulfil my 'mission' of perfecting the recipe before I returned back to my mansion. OOOOOKAY then. I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I took all the time to write that so it stays. A more biblical way to answer you would be::
You must understand that as bizarre as it was to the bears that the eternal HUMAN not BEAR who lived in the mansion would ever be 1) in their neck of the woods so to speak 2) being in the likeness of a bear as they are, *in the most bizarre segway ever:* to the Jews, Jesus saying that He was the 'I Am' the 'Ani Hu' and the YHWH of the OT, was utter blasphemy. Once again, I have to quote C.S.
(About G-d)
"..Thirdly, He (G-d) selected one particular people and spent several centuries hammering into their heads what sort of G-d He was--that there was only one of Him and that He cared about right conduct. Those people were the Jews and the Old Testament gives an account of the hammering process.
Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was G-d. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of G-d, or one with G-d: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of G-d. **G-d, in their language, meant the Being outside the world, who made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips."
So, G-d, meaning 'being OUTSIDE the world', and the Jews seeing the very normal looking human Jesus before them, and having laws against blasphemy, I don't believe, would pause for a second to ponder..."hmmmm, what IF?" That would be very un-Jewish at that point.
Another point I could make, is about Jesus in relation to the Jews themselves. The Jews, in large part at that time, and to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah. (though many did accept Him) What must be clear about the Jews are a few words from the prophets concerning them and their acceptance of Jesus when He came:
from John 12:37
THE JEWS CONTINUE IN THEIR UNBELIEF
"Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
For this reason they could not believe, because Isaiah says elsewhere:
"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn--and I would heal them."
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him"
What we have here then is perhaps the more Biblical explanation of why the Jews did not stop and think "well, maybe He is.." The Jews were blind. They did not believe in Him. When He claimed what He did, they did not understand, they made ready to stone Him. I think Jesus knew this, He knew the Law and the Prophets, He knew they would react this way. So He slipped away and hid Himself, for He knew His time was to come when He would be taken and nailed to the cross.
Also, I haven't the time to look it up right now, but it says that 'He walked among them, and they did not know Him' or something like that anyway.
Rob: Your post that I exerpted this from was excellent. I appreciated he thoughts contained but what I mention above just seems to be sort of a let down if Jesus had to run intead of the Jews accepting His claim.
Myx: Thanks! I would have to say it is a let down, on the Jews part really. But again, the Jews have not to this day in large part accepted His claim, neither to be the Messiah, or the One and Only Son of G-d. They're still waiting for their Messiah, which, if they had done their math in Daniel, they would KNOW it was Jesus. I'm sure you probably already knew all this. But, they'll have their chance. And, yes, it makes perfect sense, did my reply make a hair of sense?
cheers
Myxomatosis -
68
A Question for Those Who Believe in a Higher Power...
by Piph in...but not necessarily the bible.
do you pray?
what do you call him/her?
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Myxomatosis
lol Six
Myx: fo shizzle
How?
Myx: errr,,,it's alot like talking, to an outside observer, talking to yourself
What do you call him/her?
Myx: Heavenly Father
Do you have a 'formula'?
Myx: heck no. That wouldn't interest a person of my small intelligence, I don't think it would keep the attention of a far greater intelligene. Although I do end prayer 'in Jesus' name'
What are your general beliefs about a Higher Power?
Myx: Instead of answering that, I would like to say that I had the most AWESOME TANGIBLE answer to prayer imaginable. And it had to do with a Jehovah's Witness. I won't say exactly what I prayed for, but I will say that Exactly what I prayed for came to be,,,and it was something completely outside my control (It had to do with the JW) which was utterly mind blowing. Especially considering the manner in which it came about. I'm being terribly vague aren't I? Oh well, THANK YOU JESUS!!!! I believe that G-d is more interested in many of us, than many of us are in Him. I'm fascinated by the more creative inventions of man, I think He's greatly interested in His creative product of the Human being. I won't bore you with more.
Myxomatosis
*and we all went to heaven in a little row boat
there was nothing to fear, nothing to doubt* -
13
Trinitarians, Did Jesus reveal himself as God?
by ClassAvenger ini'm a person that believes in the trinity, but i have a question.
i know jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as god himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least i think he didn't), but i know from what i've read that the disciples knew and taught it.
my question is, did jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the holy spirit?
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Myxomatosis
Hey Class Avenger,
<<I'm a person that believes in the Trinity, but I have a question. I know Jesus didn't reveal to all the people to whom he preached as God himself, and it was not something that he directly taught (or at least I think he didn't), but I know from what I've read that the disciples knew and taught it. My question is, did Jesus tell them, or did they have this revealed when they were anointed by the Holy Spirit? Only trinitarians answer, I don't want to start a debate here on wether the Trinity is true or false.>>
Myx: Wooof, this is a tough one. I like the way C.S puts it, "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him [Jesus]: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. he would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."
It's true, if a man were to say what Jesus said about Himself, and He were not G-d, then you would have to be a madman, liar, demon, and a fool, for He died believing it. THAT is why Paul says If it were NOT for the RESURRECTION, Our faith be in vain. That sort of substantiated His claims completely, if it had not happened, the miracles He performed could likely have been easier to explain away. Ok, then, He was and is something more than just human.
One thing that may be helpful is to go through the Bible, look at the times that the Jews got 'ready to stone him', now, there are many reasons for capital punishment in old Jewish law, but only FIVE for the cruel method of stoning. The only one Jesus would have been breaking was the sin of BLASPHEMY, for He "called Himself the Son of G-d, making Himself EQUAL with G-d"
Jesus taught it.
John 8 56-58
Jesus speaking "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."
What we have here is the most explicit claim I believe in the New Testament of Jesus concerning His deity. He says "before Abraham was born, I AM!" which the Jews, as you can see, understood perfectly, He was 'blaspheming' in their minds, they made ready to stone Him. Now, the importance of this cannot be overestimated, for it is the Greek words "Ego Eimi" which is the Hebrew "Ani Hu". In the Old Testament, there are surrogates for the divine Name YHWH, and "Ani Hu" I believe is used consistently as meaning, being, YHWH. So, at this point, Jesus was claiming to be the "I AM" the ever existent, the YHWH of the OT. He also said He was there with Abraham, which reading back it had to be the Pre-existent Christ speaking to Abraham in many instances in the Old Testament.
Heard of a 'doubting Thomas'?
After the resurrection, Jesus appears to Thomas. Thomas doubted that the other disciples had seen the Lord.
John 20:26
"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
"Thomas said to him, "My Lord and MY G-D!"
"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thomas said "My Lord and MY G-D"....if Jesus WERE NOT, He would have to be again, evil NOT TO REBUKE THOMAS. Jesus does not. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Thomas calling Him G-d when He appears after the resurrection....Would He do you think IF He really LOVED the Father, and HONOURED the Father as He claimed, if it were not true?
Another thing that really cannot be overestimated, is that He forgave sins (which by nature are all against G-d) which the Jews knew was something only G-d could do. He behaved as if He were the chief party involved, which would be absurd, almost comical if He were not truly G-d in nature. Now, if I stepped on your toes, it would be logical for you to forgive me, since you were the person affected. What Jesus did, is behaved as if by my stepping on your toes, I had done HIM wrong, not only you, but He as well. You see how that would be silly if it were not also against Him?
Matthew 9:1
"Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. Some men brought to him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!"
"Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier to say, ' Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?"
Jesus thinks it is evil to think that He is blaspheming when He forgives sins apparently. soooo....
I hope this has been a bit helpful, Jesus did indeed claim deity for Himself, by His words, by His actions, and proven by His resurrection (He said He would 'raise the temple' if they were to destroy it 'in three days'...later, His disciples realised He was speaking of His BODY, which it says ' G-d raised from the dead'). I have just recently realized the things He says about Himself in relation to the Father, If He were not equal, and co-existent, would only pile on the case for His nuttery.
Also, it is by the Holy Spirit that you are CONVINCED OF JESUS' WORDS, and of Scripture. So yes, I do believe the Disciples by the indwelling, were Convinced by the Spirit that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father. :)
I know this is not what Jesus said about Himself, but it is utterly incredible I think.
Hebrews 1:8
If you haven't, I would highly recommend reading all of Hebrews, but just to keep it brief...
Whoever wrote this is quoting Pslam 45, This would be the Father, through the Holy Spirit, speaking of the Son (sound like tri-unity?)
"But about the Son He says,
"Your throne, O G-D, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore G-d, your G-d, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."
I don't know how much more clear it can be, the Father calls the Son 'G-d' twice in this passage.
also
Heb 1:6
"And again, when G-d brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all G-d's angels worship him."
G-d was letting his angels worship a creature? Nope, esp. not another angel. G-d does not share His glory, as said in the Bible.
Some of the writings of Ignatius are brilliant on this. Irenaeus points to the parts where it is the pre-existent Christ (recorded as YHWH) speaking to Abraham in a theophany.
Was this any help? Do you have any more questions? I've read some cool stuff, so I'd love to share my thoughts if there's anything else you're wondering about. ahhhhhh, it was soooo nice to just be able to use BIBLE verses without getting in disputes over the Greek, and petty divisions like that as I do when talking to Witnesses online.
luv
Myxomatosis -
17
*Door to Door stories anyone?*
by Myxomatosis ini'm sure this has been done, but i'm very curious to hear stories from your preaching work as a publisher, aux.
pioneer, reg.
pioneer, whatever.
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Myxomatosis
ROFLMAO everyone! I think I just made a load in my pants! I swear, I haven't laughed this hard in at least two years. The story about the pubes sprouting out the open fly *catches breath* toooo funny everyone!!! Thanks for replying, even though I see that this has been done before (thanks for the links jgnat)
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Thank You all
by plmkrzy inespecially stinky and six
i am going back to the kh.
i've been here 2 years and posted over a year trying to be supportive of everyone but some things are even too obvious for even me to not see.
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Myxomatosis
Plmkrzy,
I know you I haven't gotten to know you and haven't been on here long, but please please please don't go back hon!!! I know this sounds silly and naive, but you have a friend in Jesus, the good Sheperd, and He will not shun you as the Watch Tower will. I do beg you to read just this one book, it's not long, before you decide to go back to the Watch Tower, it is "The Sacred Romance" by Brent Curtis, it's breathtaking.
Plm: I've been here 2 years and posted over a year trying to be supportive of everyone but some things are even too obvious for even me to not see.
Myx: I am curious as to which things you are referring?
Plm: I don't want to live out my life with no friends at all so I'll choose the lesser of the evils.
I am going through some rough things right now and could use some friends.
Myx: I can relate to this. I've had the most dull life imaginable for about three years now. Maybe it would make you feel better if you knew how lame my life was :) I dunno. Anyways, if you want to talk to me, I am absolutely here for you, and I hope to do anything for you I can. my e-mail is [email protected] if you wanna talk one on one.
God bless,
Myxomatosis -
17
*Door to Door stories anyone?*
by Myxomatosis ini'm sure this has been done, but i'm very curious to hear stories from your preaching work as a publisher, aux.
pioneer, reg.
pioneer, whatever.
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Myxomatosis
Hi everyone!
I'm sure this has been done, but I'm VERY curious to hear stories from your preaching work as a publisher, aux. pioneer, reg. pioneer, whatever. Were people usually rude to you? Did you get the 'privilege' of conducting many home 'bible' studies? How much 'bible' studying did you do (was it WT pub. moreso I mean?) Did you ever catch da mouse put him in the pot (KH)so to speak? Did anyone ever answer the door naked?lol Last time the JW's came to our house was back in November, people who had just moved in as neighbors, it was a really freaky older dude who hobbled along our walkway with this giant cast on the lower half of his leg, with a REALLY REALLY freaky dude who looked like the albino in 'The Princess Bride' for real. Anyways, I had been reading alot on them by that time, so I wanted to play, but mum kicked them OUT DA HOUSE! It was a shame I didn't wish them a happy thanksgiving, seeing as it was. Then another time NO KIDDING here, I had walked down to the bridge on the road to our house, just out for a walk and a read, and the freaky dude with the cast was driving along, recognized me and stopped: here's the thing, I was SMOKING (lol) and reading 'CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE' (roflol) I don't think he saw the book, but he asked me if things were tough at home (????) I exhaled a big puff of smoke, said no, thanks though. He then said "you know, we're getting very near to the end of this wicked system of things" *I nod, he nods, I keep nodding, he looks at my cigarette* Anyways, THAT time, it was Easter, and I failed to wish him Happy Easter and 'would he be going on an ISHTAR egg hunt with the fam?' :)
ANYWAYS, surry, I'm curious though, was there really any standout experiences you had, or just general door in your face type thing from the worldly occupants? I'd love to hear them anyways, my good friend who's a JW :( said that the three years she spent as a part time pioneer (70 hours a month, would that be a 'regular pioneer?') was quote "the best three years of my life" which I thought was a bit of self dillusion perhaps.
Thanks everyone!
luv
Myxomatosis
*yeah 4st 7 an epilogue of youth
such beautiful dignity in self abuse*
msp 4st 7 -
14
My 1st Birthday
by frogit inguess what?
i have been posting here for a whole year .
i have learnt so much from this forum and thank you all for the great posts, a very great thank you to simon for all the hard work and time spent helping us all.
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Myxomatosis
hello Frogit!
They say it's your birthday.. HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Isn't it great to have your friends and family idolize and creature worship you for a day a year??? I always pull out my lash and make my family bow til their forehead is touching the ground and praise with trembling at what a gift it was to the world that I had been born! I hope you had a great one. Makes me sad it's only your first. :( how old are you turning on your first birthday?)
LUV,
Myxomatosis
*It's gonna be a glorious day* -
55
Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??
by Latte injust thought id share with you.
any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated..thanks!
yesterday, i had two lovely young men at my door - they were mormons.
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Myxomatosis
archangel: listen to Myxomatosis. He or she hit it on the dot. Go to Jesus to be saved! Much love a brother in Christ!!!!!!!!!!
Myx: hey thank you! that's very kind, though, not many people I do think care very much for my point of view :( s'ok. Actually, that bit about solely having Jesus I didn't actually write, but I sure as hell agree with it! I just had to copy that when I read it on this other site cos it's so exactly what the JW's say!!
btw, I'm a (f)oxy lady nice to meet you archangel!
I'm presuming you WERE a JW at some point then? sorry, I have to ask, cos I wasn't so I'm not sure when others have been, anyways
luv,
Myxomatosis
*fake royalty secondhand sequin facade* -
55
Should I Convert to Become a MORMON??
by Latte injust thought id share with you.
any tips on dealing with them would be greatly appreciated..thanks!
yesterday, i had two lovely young men at my door - they were mormons.
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Myxomatosis
Hello,
Errr.... If you wish to join another elitist 'club' I s'pose, but not if you're actually searching for G-d.
They're preeeetty whacked. My close friend got her boyfriend to tell her some of the mormon beliefs, and one of them was that you couldn't go swimming while on a mission in the lake, because the devil is there and he will pull you under. That's what he said! I don't know if that's an 'official' belief. Anyways, they're a cult, they are sure they are the one true religion, as evidenced not less than a month ago a very devout mormon who wrote this on a MB, and I saved it.
"Mormons believe that their church is ''the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth' (D&C 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almight to preach his gospel and administer to ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has the power to save'' (Mormon Doctrine , 1977 ed., p. 136)."
Mormon says:
Yes, this is true. Jesus only set up one church and said let there be no divisions in it and told them to speak the same thing in all the churches. There can therefore be only one true church and it must be consistant teaching the same thing in all the churches.
I believe that is the Mormon Church. You may believe it is another church. Allowing all churchs to be that church is very generous on the part of man, but it is not God's way and all but one church are false churches with out the power to save. That is just the fact of it Whether you wish to belive it our not.
"No church has the power to save. We can only be saved by coming to the Lord Jesus Christ according to John 14:6 and Acts 4:12. The Bible doesn't tell us that we can be saved through a church of any kind"
Mormon says:
"I would have to go through and read the whole Bible looking for scriptures to this effect and by then this discussion would be forgotten. I can say that the Bible says one must have authority to perform saving ordinances and that authority is found in the true church. I can also say that the true gospel is administered through the true church so in order to have the true doctrine you must get it from the true church. The church is the kingdom of God on earth and either you are in it our you are not."
In other words, the mormon church, exactly as the watchtower, is the one true church, and on top of believing in Christ, you must belong to it, for it is the kingdom of G-d on earth. The mormon church is the one with the "authority to perform saving ordinances" (HUUHHHHH?????) and that this is found in "the true church" (LDS) sooo...I don't know... a wee similar to the JW's then?
On top of this, you may be interested to know that even though they don't call it 'old light' if you are to bring up for example the teachings of BRIGHAM YOUNG, they would tell you that that is a lie, not what they believe. In other words it is 'old light' In fact, I was watching dateline or somesuch the other day where an ex-Mormon was in jail for the murder of his sister in law and her baby, because Gawd had told him that they were in the way of their preaching work. You know what? The reason he was ex-communicated was because of his interest in the works of BRIGHAM YOUNG, had read that he COULD BE LIKE G-D, had read that G-d WAS FIRST A MAN LIKE ADAM, on and on, and he was labeled an apostate and df'd for his belief in the Mormons OWN TEACHINGS. It would be like someone in the JW saying that Christ arrived in 1874 today, and to 'beware of organization for it is wholly unnecessary'. The WT of today would not take well to that. Anyways, if you don't know much of their history, here's a bit of interesting things about the mormons that they will not inform you of most likely. Do you know anything of Joseph Smith, the 'prophet'?
It is not that the books he wrote were dropped from heaven, in a nutshell, and this is directly from their own mouths, though I can't find my book with the quotes, Moroni the angel of light visited him and over a four year period every year he would go back to where there were the stone tablets on a mountain or something. He had to prove himself I believe, on the fourth year, he was able to take the tablets, and by the power of Gawd tranlsate them. That's how you got the BOM, which has had over 3,000 edits since it's first edition in 1830.
Now, the Book of Abraham is seriously one of the funniest things I've read about.
here you are from Josh McDowells 'UTC':
Here's something fun about the 'Book of Abraham'
" Most interesting is the recently exposed fraud of the so-called book of Abraham, part of the Mormon scripture known as 'The Pearl of Great Price.' This was assertedly translated from an ancient Egyptian papyrus found in the mummy wrappings of certain mummies which had been acquired by a certain Michael H. Chandler.
In 1835 Joseph Smith became very much interested in these papyrus leaves, which he first saw in Kirtland, Ohio, on July 3, and arranged for the purchase of both mummies and manuscripts. Believing he had divinely received the gift of interpreting ancient Egyptian, he was delighted to find that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham himself, whose signature he had personally inscribed in the Egyptian language.
In 1842, Smith published his translation under the title, " The Book of Abraham" in Times and Seasons. He even included three drawings of the pictures or vignettes appearing in the manuscript, and interpreted the meaning of these illustrations: Abraham sitting upon the throne of Pharaoh, the serpent with walking legs who tempted Eve in Eden.
For many years, the collection of papyri was lost, but somehow they (or else a duplicate set of them from ancient times) were presented to the Mormon Church by the Metropolitan Art Museum of New York City on November 27, 1967. This made the translation skill of Joseph Smith susceptible to objective verification.
The unhappy result was that earlier negative verdicts of scholars like Theodule Devaria of the Louvre, and Samul A.B. Mercer of Western Theological Seminary, and James H. Breasted of the Univercity of Chicago, and W.F. Flinders Petrie of London University( who had all been shown Smith's facsimiles) were clearly upheld by a multitude of present-day Egyptologists.
Their finding was that not a SINGLE WORD of Joseph Smith's alleged translation bore ANY resemblance to the contents of this document. It turned out to be a late, eve Ptolemaic, copy in hieratic script of the Sensen Papyrus, which belongs to the same genre as the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
As John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, described it in a published letter written on March 16, 1966, it contains vignettes familiar from the Book of the Dead. The first illustration shows the god of embalming named Anubis preparing the body of the deceased for burial, with the sould hovering over his head in the form of a bird, and the canopic jars containing the dead man's inwards set beneath his bier.
The third picture shows the deceased led into the presence of Osiris, the infernal deity who judged the sould of the dead. (This is what Smith had identified (by the Power of God) as Abraham sitting on Pharoahs throne!) Figure 2 was a round disc made of cloth and jesso and customarilly placed as a pillow under the head of a corpse in the Late Egyptian period.
The accompanying text, as can be ascertained from other copies of this not uncommon document, deals with the magical spells intended to open the mouth of the deceased and to prepare him for his audience before Osiris in the judgement hall of the dead (as set forth in detail in chap. 125 of the Book of the Dead, the Egyptian title of which is P-r m h-r-w, or 'The Going Forth by Day"). Needless to say, the completely mistaken concept of Joseph Smith as to his competence in ancient Egyptian is now clearly demonstrated beyond debate. "
"Also, The Pearl of Great Price contains the Book of Moses, which is roughly equivalent to the first six chapters of Genesis, and The Book of Abraham, a translation of an Egyptian Papyrus THAT LATER PROVED TO BE FRAUDULENT,,,(see above) so Moroni was being deceitful??? That's not a quality I would attribute to either God or on of His Angels...`
"The Book of Mormon and Archaeology:
Mormon scholars can be frustrated and embarrased understandably when they realize that after all the years of work by Mormon and other archaeologists:
1. NO Book of Mormon cities have been located
2. NO Book of Mormon names have been found in the New World inscriptions
3. NO genuine inscriptions have been found in Hebrew in America
4. NO genuine inscriptions have been found in America in Egyptian or anything similar to Egyptian, which could correspond to Joseph Smith's "reformed Egyptian"
5. NO ancient copies of Book of Mormon scriptures have been found.
6. No ancient inscriptions of any kind in America which indicate that the ancient inhabitants had Hebrew or Christian beliefs have been found.
7. No mention of 'Book of Mormon' persons, nations, or places have been found.
8. NO artifact of any kind which demonstrates the Book of Mormon is true has been found.
9. Rather than finding supportive evidence, Mormon scholars have been forced to retreat from traditional interpretations of Book of Mormon statements (Hal Hougey, Archaeology and the Book of Mormon, p.12)