Perry, please convince me that God exists. Give me clear evidence that should lead me, a logical, rational thinker, with some background in science, to believe. I'm serious. I want to believe. I don't understand how you can have such strong belief. Do you have evidence that I don't have?
Posts by Magnum
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108If God is real?
by suavojr inif after you die you find yourself in front a god ready to judge you.
what will you say in your defense for not believing?
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108
If God is real?
by suavojr inif after you die you find yourself in front a god ready to judge you.
what will you say in your defense for not believing?
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Magnum
How could you, a supposedly all-intelligent, reasoning being, blame me for questioning or not believing? You know that for many years I sincerely sought truth and tried to believe 100%, but there were always major unanswered questions and things that didn't seem right.
If you say I should have believed because of religion, then I ask Why? I was a JW. They seem progressively more wrong and less believable as time goes on (could write a book on that). Their history is full of outright wrong teachings, loonie teachings, failed prophecies, etc. If you say 'look at nature', I say that I did, and I saw evidence of millions of years of horror, misery, and suffering. Nature is all about survival. Even so-called pretty flowers are "pretty" because they're screaming for survival. Their bright colors are screaming for insects to pollinate them lest the species die. Nature is cruel.
Please, before you destroy me, give me the reason(s) why I should have believed.
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Ronald Aronson book
by Gypsy Sam ini'm reading his book, "living without god" ~ new directions for atheists, agnostics, secularists, and the undecided.
it was written in 2008 and is a logical, thought provoking, smooth read.. i am a bit more than half finished and didn't see any other threads on this book.
i'm really enjoying it and would recommend it for anyone.. has anyone else read it?
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Magnum
Never heard of it. But I will check into it. Thanks for the recommendation. I love the recommendations made on this sight. That's how I first learned about Bart Ehrman. I bought two of his books after finding out about him on this sight. Thanks again.
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Just asked for a bible study on jw.org
by trujw inmy name was false prophet.
my address was october 1968 awake is it later than you think.
my town was this generation will by no means pass away may 15, 1984. to be honest i am going to request again but this time with my real name and address.
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Magnum
Now it is there to turn to find out I will never forget and never forgive them. Am I bitter hell yes and feel there is nothing wrong with that.
I understand 100%, agree 100%, and feel 100% the same way. That's why on the recent thread about forgiving, I stood my ground when some were saying we should forgive and/or forget.
Was smart could of haved a scholorship etc. etc.
Same with me. I gave up college. I gave up all kinds of jobs and career opportunities. I passed up some jobs just because they required work on weekends or meeting nights. I quit a job I had so I could start pioneering.
always had question that supposedly people strong in the truth could not answer
I did, too. I was told to just put them on the back burner and that I would get answers later. Well, over thirty years later... questions not answered. They've just grown in intensity and quantity. I asked them how it could have been the case that animals didn't kill each other before the sin in eden when there is so much evidence that they've been killing each other for millions of years. I said "we (JWs) say 'design requires a designer'; well, it seems that animals were designed to kill, then." Got an attempted answer, but it was lame. I asked all kinds of questions about the flood. Many other questions. Was told would get answers; I didn't.
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"Watchtower's Achilles' Heel" is available in Spanish
by Doug Mason inthe watchtowers achilles heel is available in spanish.. if reasoning with a jw on the governing bodys interpretations such as of the kingdom of god, parousia, the cross, blood, and so on is unlikely to break the governing bodys mental stranglehold, what then is its achilles heel?.
my study: the watchtowers achilles heel answers that question.
http://www.jwstudies.com/the_watchtower_s_achilles__heel.pdf.
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Magnum
Thank you. Just copied the pdf to my hard drive (hope that's OK). Read it quickly, but will study it later. Saw some interesting stuff - stuff I''ve never thought of before. Made me think. I have been giving a lot of thought lately to the idea that it seems that Paul functioned independently of the Jerusalem group and didn't answer to them and, as you indicated, even spoke with disdain for them or even sarcasm about them.
This is something else you wrote that I've been thinking about a lot lately: "a JW obeys the GB because of who it claims to be , not because of what it says ." I was going to start a thread on this site about that.
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GB approves entertainment auditioning for international delegates.
by suavojr ini don't know if this was mentioned but i spoke with a jw from atlanta, georgia that informed me that the great gb has approved jw auditions.. yes, you read that right!
now the jw's will have their own jw idol, jw voice, and dancing with jw stars, lol.. they are using an assembly hall in atlanta and jw's from all over are auditioning from 8am till 6pm.. supposedly the idea is to have live entertainment for the delegates traveling from overseas for the international conventions.. he said they have had jw's who can play all the hits from the beatles, play merengue, salsa, sing, dance, etc.. the gb is trying hard to make their cult look normal.. some of the questions this rises are,.
will it work?
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Magnum
All I can say is that the current WT is no where close to what it used to be
I say that, too.
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112
Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?
by Magnum inwhy are jws so afraid of apostates?
their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.
its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.
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Magnum
emeth-
just a handfull of regular posters from within only a few countries repeating the same mantra's and conspiracy theories over and over again
If that's true, what's wrong with it? That's what JWs do. A handful of org higher-ups repeat mostly the same thing over and over again through meetings, in the Watchtower, at assemblies, at conventions, etc. Except when they get "new light" indicating that what they had been repeating over and over again for years was wrong.
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FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health
by ABibleStudent ini'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.
while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.
now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.
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Magnum
OK - I might check those posts out later, but I believe you.
Don't assume that respect and compassion equals weakness and passive.
That's a straw-man argument. You've introduced a different subject and are attacking it. That point you just introduced has nothing to do with what we're talking about in this thread; we're talking about forgiveness - forgiveness for an entity (the org or individual JWs) who has not repented - is still attacking. This thread is not about respect and compassion. But, just to address that, I am deeply respectful and deeply compassionate. I assure you that I don't think respect and compassion equal weakness and passivity. But again, that's not the point of this thread.
The major differences between you and me, is that I chose to control my actions, to listen to others before reacting, and to search for "Win-Win" scenerios.
Another straw-man argument; that's not what we're talking about. But just to address it anyway... So a major difference between me and you is that you choose to control your actions? What does that have to do with this thread? How possibly could you know to what degree I do or don't control my actions? We're talking about forgiveness in this thread. So you listen to others before you react and you're different from me in that? How do you know whether I listen to others before I react? I've been listening to JWs at least 40 years? Is that not long enough? So you search for "Win-Win" scenarios and you're different from me in so doing? How do you know? What "Win-Win" scenarios have I not searched for? Tell me, please.
Negative emotions like anger, fear, and distrust can make nice people do mean things
Emotions like anger, fear, and distrust can make smart people do good things. I don't think such emotions are "negative". That's just some label you attach to try to make a point. Emotions like those are healthy and absolutely necessary. If you have children, you should instill a proper sense of fear in them and a proper sense of distrust. Even anger is proper at times. If I see somebody torturing or mistreating or animal, do you want me to not get angry?
Look, we just disagree. You started this thread kind of preaching pop-psychology forgiveness. I disagree with you and whoever psychologists you might have quoted. Psychology is not an exact science. I'm not going to forgive the org or individual JWs because they're far from changing or repenting; they're getting worse. The org steals lives. Individual JWs are smug. They're pestering me. They think they're better than me. They want to "encourage" me, but I can't have an open discussion with them. Any session with them can only end good if I state how wrong and sorry I am and how wonderful the org is. I'm not doing that. Why would I want to forgive that smugness, that air of superiority? They can kiss my ass. Sorry if that bothers you. But, remember, you're the one who started preaching forgiveness. This ain't JW land; we can disagree here with what comes from the "platform" and we don't all have to shake our heads in mindless, drone agreement.
I really do wish you the best and am not mad at you. I just have stong feelings in this area. You and I probably agree on some other subjects - just not this one. Why don't we just leave it at that?
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75
FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health
by ABibleStudent ini'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.
while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.
now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.
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Magnum
ABibleStudent - I swear I'm not trying to be mean. I really am a nice, forgiving person, but you sound a little too goody-goody, passive, peace-and-love for me.
For those who are having difficult overcoming their anger, have you thought about reading inspirational stories of volunteers to inspire oneself to get involved in something that one is passionate about. Volunteering is a great way to meet non-JWs with similiar interests and values and to overcome many of the WTBTS's phobias about non-JWs and "this System".
That's kind of presumptuous and kind of condescending - like you're on a higher plane than some of us. You presume that some of us need to read "inspirational stories of volunteers". That infuriates me. I bet I've spent countless more hours and countless more dollars volunteering than you have. And I don't need to meet anybody. I have a wonderful, rich life. I'm interested in many things. I love to learn. I love to travel. That's one of the reasons I'm angry. JWs robbed me of any ability to ever really engage in any of those things I love. I'll never be able to travel because of my financial and work situation - thanks to JWs. JWs told me in black-and-white, in no uncertain terms, that I would be in paradise in now. I'm not. They were black-and-white wrong. And, according to you and some others, I'm supposed to walk off in the sunset singing "kumbaya". Over my dead body. I'm not ready to forgive pompous, smug JWs. HOWEVER, if they repent, if they change, if they come to their senses, I will welcome them with open arms. I will forgive when doing so is justified.
If you want to play peace-and-love and sing kumbaya, feel free to. I don't care. That's your right. But quit acting like JWs and preaching your pop psychology to some of us.
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FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health
by ABibleStudent ini'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.
while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.
now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.
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Magnum
lisaBObeesa -
Did you read all that you just pasted? So you quote Martin Luther King, Jr. as if that's supposed to shut me up? Is that your appeal to authority (logical fallacy)? Problem is, I don't consider MLK to be an authority.
First, we must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive.
Why, MLK, because you say so? Who the hell are you to tell me I must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive? Are you smarter than I am? I doubt it. Do you have more insight than I do? I doubt it.
Forgiveness does not mean ignoring what has been done or putting a false label on an evil act. It means, rather, that the evil act no longer remains as a barrier to the relationship. Forgiveness is a catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning.
lisaBObeesa - do you really think the "barrier to the relationship" between JWs and those who doubt/question/challenge them will ever break down? Do you really think that our forgiving the org/JWs will be a "catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning". What a load of kumbaya BS! The only way you will ever get a fresh start and new beginning with JWs would be to kiss their asses, bow to their super Jedi Knight GB, and hang your head in shame and admit how stupid you've been not to have seen all their wonderful light. You would start off "fresh" all right - right at the bottom. If you're a brother, you might get to carry a microphone after a year or so.
Third, we must not seek to defeat or humiliate the enemy but to win his friendship and understanding.
OK, again, I don't answer to MLK; he's not my authority. He doesn't tell me what to do just as JWs don't. But just to analyze what he said... "we must not seek to defeat the enemy" - what??? Why not?
De 7:2 "And Jehovah your God will certainly abandon them to you, and you must defeat them"
Jg 20:35 And Jehovah proceeded to defeat Benjamin before Israel
LisaB - Do you really think you're going to win the friendship and understanding of the org by forgiving it? You only win its friendship if you serve it and slave for it and sacrifice for it and worship it.
There are a lot of other things I could say about that MLK quote, but don't have time for it.