Posts by budbayview

30

Who will be killed at Armageddon?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

if the current doctrine is that only baptised witnesses are going to survive and everyone else burns them what about this new update new light that some from before the flood and sodomites will be resurrected?.

but didn’t he mention at the agm something about there is no point jehovah killing them and then resurrecting them again?

it seems they are confused about what they teach and that’s why brother jackson joked about “is this what we used to believe or what we believe now?”.

budbayview

Here is one of my challenges with the org’s salvation interpretation. If an individual dies before the judgement cut without an understanding of Gods life T&Cs (i.e., ignorance) they get a resurrection (i.e., do-over). Notwithstanding, they come back into the world during the 1K year time, which clearly removes any ambiguity about who or if there is a God, our origins, purpose, and all these things we are guessing at or supposed to have faith in. I do not know about you, but what % of folks do you think will reject God after a resurrection in the new world? Not many, I am thinking. But for the ones that are lucky enough to be living in this hell hole currently without any visible proof of the aforementioned, and sickness, death and all that goes along with life in this $hit hole, we won’t make the cut because we are not part of an elite religious club claiming to represent God on earth. Right....that makes complete logical sense and represents a fair judgement for all humans. Really? Sorry, I cannot reason this is fair and balanced.

I find it repugnant and arrogant that any religious leaders take part in speculation about who or who will not be forgiven by our savior. I personally know many non-JWs that are kind, loving, and just good souls, better people than some of the witnesses that I have known in the truth. I cannot imagine they would be sidelined because they are not baptized JWs.

I am not a fan of eschatological theology as it sets a premise of fear motivation. Most individuals have misplaced the love for the Creator in exchange for a given behavior for either receiving of gifts (life) or out of fear (death). Anyone with children knows we want our children to love us, not because of what we can give them or what we can take away.

7

Philosophical Question

by budbayview in

according to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom.

in god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the universal creator.

accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.. here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the universal creator?

budbayview

According to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom. In god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the Universal Creator. Accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.

Here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the Universal Creator? You do not break bad like that unless you know you can win. I just cannot conceive that an intelligent creation is going on a suicide mission to prove a point just to piss-off daddy.

One possible explanation is that the illuminated serpent is not the bad guy in the story.

Another possible explanation is that we do not know the complete divine hierarchy, and we have only been exposed to a few levels down. I personally favor this as the Hebrew god Yahweh, at times displays petty, jealous, behavior, or basically not the caliber of personality and being that put all these universal pieces together.

Given the criterion that this story is rooted in reality and truth, what say you? Is there more to this universal play than we know?

21

The Great Tribulation

by Fisherman in

will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what job, jesus, roman punishment, naz&i germany, hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment?

how worse can pain and suffering get.

it is very common.

budbayview

If you look back through history, there were many events that would certainly qualify as to what that tribulation would look like.

For example, 5 million people die of smallpox in the Roman Empire, 25 million dead of bubonic plague in the Roman/Byzantine Empire. 100 million dead across Europe and Asia between 1338 to 1351 from the Black Death or bubonic plague and another 1.5 billion in the Americas dead from the combined diseases of smallpox, measles, and typhoid all before the 1900’s. Two years from 1918 to 1920 brought the Spanish flu pandemic, with mortality of 75 million across the globe. That is just a small example, there is much much more.

Just in our times, if you have ever seen any footage of a depression era dust bowl storm rolling in complete with lighting, one would imagine that was it. Or imagine you are in Japan during the time we dropped the nuclear bombs, vaporizing thousands, and leaving more with severe burns and radiation poisoning. Sipping on our espressos at Starbucks, playing house, most Americans do not have a clue. We have been desensitized to death, we are immune and unsympathetic. As I wrote in my prior post, I am not a fan of eschatological writings.

My point is this. Look at the personality of God and ask yourself do you really believe what was written down is locked in solid truth? Or maybe, we just do not know shite like we think we do.

21

The Great Tribulation

by Fisherman in

will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what job, jesus, roman punishment, naz&i germany, hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment?

how worse can pain and suffering get.

it is very common.

budbayview

I ask why.

Why have humans been relegated to the predestined words on a page? No hope, no way to change the trajectory? So, in my simple world that is predestination, yes? If we have the outcome beforehand, that is predestination. But, it also defines our mindset. I like to use the parental child relationship for my bases; as above so below. We know that if we as parents program our children negatively or continue to remind them they will not be successful, most will not be able to overcome that and will fail. We have been told that we are sinners, and unworthy of a direct relationship with god, we have been told that man cannot rule man, for example. I am not debating these but pointing out the negative programming. We were told that since our forefathers screwed the pooch, we are dead on arrival. Then things change up some in the New Testament with the messiah’s message. Perhaps if we hold our breath, stand on one leg and shoutout the gospels loud enough, there is a tiny tiny tiny chance we may have a shot at salvation. Really?

Does this sound like the thoughts of the universal creator, or something other? The primary drivers here are fear and reward based. You get something good if you tow the line, or you get death (or something other) if not. So, at the end of the day we have been taught to love god for what he is giving us, or what (he) is taking away. I do not know about you, but I did not bring up my child in that way. I want his love, because he truly loves us, not because of what we can give him or take away. Fear and reward systems are short lived. Notwithstanding, if you are king and use those motivating/control mechanisms you will never know who your true and loyal subjects are.

But I digress, back to the point of the tribulation. If we know the end, why are were living in this hell to begin with? Seems pointless. Enough suffering already, time to course correct.

37

Circumcision....Perfect Adam....Uncircumcised....1st century Christians...circumcision ont required

by blondie in

jw
friends

i know this has been discussed many times, but i was watching a news story about female genital mutilation (not female circumcision) and segued mentally into why the hassle about male babies having to be circumcised, christians especially.

even the wts flipflops on this...... if adam, the first perfect man, not under the jewish law code, was given a foreskin by god as an aspect of his physical perfection, why then do so many "christian" people have their boy babies circumcised?.

if a health issue....why did god create the perfect man, adam, with a foreskin?.

budbayview

Great Question!

According to The effect of male circumcision on sexuality “Masturbatory difficulty increased after circumcision in 63%.” There you have your answer, uncircumcised males would spend all their time sanding wood (i.e., self-pleasure), resulting in lower birth rates, or it put the survival of the tribe at risk. Of course, I’m kidding; however, it does beg the obvious question concerning the physiological effects.

I have read, although difficult to measure, the assertion that over 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings are packed into the foreskin. Surveys on the same seem quite subjective, and debated. Although the following links do provide a good amount of supportive references for the coloration of nerve density and erogenous zones. http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm, and http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann/

Concerning the argument in favor of circumcision most site immunological benefits. There again, there is evidence to support just the opposite that the “protective effect of the natural anatomy.” provides mechanisms against infection. Therefore, this contradicts the hygiene argument, and presupposition that the people of that time were too ignorant to keep their junk clean and free of sand. http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/

As a differential mark, I agree with the comments, I’m not sure where this would practically be demonstrated.

What I struggle with is the theocratic justifications. I believe one can make a strong argument given the current understanding of medicine, and science, concluding that keeping the foreskin intact has merit in uncompromised anatomy’s, albeit the procedure is still contested. Personally, I feel shortchanged (not shorted mind you) knowing several inches of highly sensitive skin was removed without my consent. But why was god so concerned with nudity, sex, and the penis in the first place? Why not pick another body part or feature to change for the purposes of sealing the deal, and marking his people? I’m thinking back hair would have been a much better selection if we had to remove anything. Or for that matter, why not add instead of subtracting, who would turn down adding a few more inches to ones penis 😊

20

Does God really care about mankind?

by Sour Grapes in

i am dying of cancer.

yesterday i asked my full blown jw wife if she could snap her fingers and make me well would she do so?.

she replied, "yes.

budbayview

Sour Grapes,

I am sorry to hear about your cancer. I have nothing to offer, and I do not know you, or the details of your diagnosis, but fight it, fight it with knowledge, and learn everything you can, and question every doctor, and treatment they offer. Doctors are not some genius wonders to behold as gods, and they will never have the same level of motivation as you do, because they don’t have the same prognoses. Use them as tools, but in the end, it is your life on the line, so fight like it is.

I do understand your anger; however, it will serve no purpose in the end but to spend precious time vexing on something that spawns negative thoughts. Spend that time with good purpose. I realize you don’t care to hear this, but there is a mind, body, and spiritual connection. Whether it’s placebo effect or something greater that we cannot fully yet explain, I have attached a few relevant links, one including a medical study on this subject, and an article from Harvard Medical School. I wish you best.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396089/

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/spirituality-and-healing

114

Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane in

several times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.

i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.

indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

budbayview

And my response to Coded Logic:

Thank you for taking the time to respond, and I respect your position, and I do not condone any violence attributed to Religion. Nor do I condone any violence attributed to man’s political agenda, greed, and overreaching quest for scientific knowledge. Your argument is biased, and does not account for all the murders and blood spilled that man has done in just developing one weapon of mass destruction. Take the nuclear bomb that was developed to drop on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you realize how many lives were sacrificed in the name of science to test and develop that weapon? This is just one example that comes to mind, and there many more in the name of geo politics, science and medicine that has brought death to thousands of innocents and misled individuals. Or the environmental catastrophes they have left behind in their wake?

I worked for a large engineering company that had concerns in federal and government work. We had permanent offices on site at Oak ridge, Tennessee, and Los Alamos Laborites, New Mexico, monitoring and cleaning up the surrounding area for nuclear radioactive contamination. Deer hunting in Oak Ridge was defined by bringing in a deer to the check point, and having it scanned for radioactivity. If it was within a certain range, you got to keep it. Needless to say, the areas are quite contaminated. So, how many people have developed cancer in those areas that believed their government would keep them safe from harm? Or what about the nuclear weapons testing the US did off the Bikini Atoll Islands. 23 tests from 1946-1958. The military authorities, and scientists told the native residents they would be able to return when they had completed. Well, you know the story, they could not, as the area was inhabitable. But, all those natives believed and had faith in what the military and scientist told them and that they would be able to return. What is worse, is that our scientist hadn’t any idea what the outcome would demonstrate, so they required testing to support their hypothesis. Which is a sanitized way of saying they had a belief and subsequent faith that it would result in proving their initial calculations. But even with all the scientific methods they employ, they were incorrect, as they would not have misled the residents initially.

Also, do understand that faith is not unjustified belief, you could not be more incorrect on this matter and would do well to realize that the science in which you “believe” is based on theory and hypothesis, and there are many unproven postulates an all areas of scientific study. So when Alan Shepard was sitting atop of that bomb, getting ready to be blasted into outer space, you better believe he had faith. He had faith in every NASA engineer that participated, but the reality is, they had no clue what was going to happen. In other words they had a belief in something, and a lot of faith that they did their calculations correctly.

Whatever axe you have to grind on religion, faith and belief, is disproportionately targeted. It unfortunately exists in all religions, cults, large corporations, and governments. Blind faith and ignorance is dangerous in any realm including the secular and scientific. My point is that somehow having a theological view got entwined with ignorance and an illogical thought processes. This is quite frankly offensive. I work in the technology and engineering industry, I am educated, and also have a background in food science. I do not pontificate illogical unreasonable conclusions. I am surrounded by very smart educated professionals, and have had some great discussion and debates on theology, but what we do not do, is utilize a sophomoric ad hominem tactic to discredit the person on the bases of their virtues, and views. And when we are discussing the origins of the universe and life, I am sorry but at the end of the day, science (actually the political) answer to the question is just as silly as that of a creationist. We are all hypnotizing and looking to prove them.

In closing you said, “and that, my friend, is why I HATE IT when people try and use faith to justify their beliefs.” I sincerely hope you don’t need faith to believe in that the next vaccination or inoculation you need to get, because the fact is you surely do, especially when you do not know the outcome. You may have some idea based on statistical analysis, but there is no guarantee or assuredness, and that my friend is still blind faith. I do agree with you on one point, trusting in humans, whether secular, or religious will result in disappointment.

11

The Logisitcs of Destroying Organized Religion

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

they define babylon the great as the "world empire of false religion", and that jehovah god will use the united nations to turn on her.. .

the "keep on the watch" brochure says the following, regarding the destruction of babylon the great:.

"for our day, the bible forecasts that political governments, like a wild beast, will turn on "the harlot" and strip her naked, exposing her real .

budbayview

I see it everyday globally, and religion is currently eroding. By the way this is not a JW or political view.

The religious bodies and religious ideologies around the world today have failed to keep pace with the increased knowledge and spiritual needs and desires of mankind. The proliferation of the Internet has provided access to a wide range of historic documents, viewpoints, blogs, secular, theological, and scholarly information to increase ones thirst for truth and knowledge. Globalization and access to once coveted historical documents that were confined to the annals of the privileged are now accessible by anyone with the initiative, the Internet, and a web browser.

A Gallup survey of Americans' Spiritual Searches Turn Inward, states that increasingly more people consider themselves spiritual than subscribing to a particular faith or religious doctrine. A new phrase has even been coined to identify this category, Spiritual but not religious (SBNR). In a January 2002 poll, 33% said they are "spiritual but not religious" (Gallup, 2007).

The founding fathers of this county, and those who fought and gave their lives to build this United States of America on the backs a fundamental Christian ideology would be thwarted to see the deliberate eradication of their beliefs from the federal and state systems to proliferate a message of global religious, and cultural tolerance. Albeit, this shift may sound innocuous, and even positive to some, its message is telling and consequential; the US is removing Christian symbols and refraining from utilizing the word “God” in government controlled facilities in order to demonstrate impartiality. Our Current President just gave a speech and according to USA Today, “After condemning ISIS, the President softened his criticism by equating their conduct with Christians during the Crusades. In addressing that moral equivalency,” http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/02/10/president-obama-prayer-breakfast-crusades-comment-column/23148065/ Additionally, his unprecedented antichristian rhetoric and behavior is well documented.

I am not judging, just reporting the news. The Aramaic faith that spawned Judaism, Christianity and Islamic beliefs, collectively represent 60% of the practiced religions across the globe according to the List of Major Religions on the Adherents website (Adherents, 2007). Those are big lines in the sand. Religious ideology still dominates as the fuel for cultural discontent and war, so how do we get everyone in the world to play together? Eradicate religion and provide social control through other means. As radical Islam continues to gain momentum, how can we separate the religion form the violent dissidents? It is imposable. In my opinion, I offer one of many possible scenarios, religious wars will continue to escalate, environmental, and economic concerns will decline, freedoms will erode, and be replaced with consistent surveillance in the name of peace and security, government controls health and wellness systems, corporations gain more control of the food supply, social stratification will increase so that one percent of the population controls 100 percent of the resources, technology will provide an army of killer droids and robots devoid of conscious or moral sensibilities, capable of enacting exact instructions without any moral obligations. Once complete social control is established, the ruling party will have the leverage. These apocalyptic visions will be possible within 10-15 years, some may have already taken pace in some parts of the world. However, the point of this is not eschatological, or fear mongering, or religious proselytizing. Forget John’s Revelations, this is simply current observation and one possible prediction.

What will happen when you can no longer worship the God of your choice because all religion is outlawed as terroristic enemies of the state?

114

Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane in

several times over the past few months i have had conversations, both here and in real life, with religious people making all sorts of interesting and conflicting claims.

i like to know how things work, so generally i will ask questions to net out what i am being told and see if it can be explained and make sense.. for instance, if someone said 2+2=4 and i asked how, there are a variety of ways that could be shown to me, a number line, physical objects being put together, counting on fingers and toes, etc.

indeed, in my personal life, i often have to explain how certain technologies work, sometimes planned, sometimes off the cuff, from a variety of group sizes to a varying degree of technical expertise.

budbayview

Viviane and all the other religious faith haters

I know I will regret posting this….but

Why all the hostility, why do you have so much angst for people of faith? By the very definition of the word faith, it will not satisfy you, therefore you should not be surprised at the outcome to your questions.

Also, realize that even in the world of science and medicine, there are unknowns, and have been miscalculations and error. Does it make them ignorant because of that, or any less intelligent for putting forth something that was understood at the time to be correct but now after refinements and increased knowledge the answers or solutions have been modified. Quite frankly, looking back at science and medicine, there have been some downright silly explanations put forth back in the day. But that doesn’t mean I do not respect my physician now because they displayed a barber pole outside their practices and would cut you open and bleed you if you had a headache.

Let me ask you a question, explain gravity, what does it look like, how does it feel, and if we are so sure about this force why can’t we control it or manipulate it? It cannot be absorbed, transformed, or shielded against, why is this? Perhaps I should question its existence altogether? But yet, I realize it must be real, that hammer I dropped on my foot surely demonstrated its existence. But I really do not understand it fully, I mean, if I can mathematically quantify it, I should be able to come up with a method to shield it, oh well, I’ll keep trying the tinfoil hat approach, dah, because I must be an ignorant faithtard because I can’t explain this gravity force fully.

Why can't scientific people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty? Why all the claims to know stuff and, when caught NOT knowing any of that stuff, the insults, the subject changing, the pretend answers? The wild calculations of abiogenesis, the crazy story that somehow life just started, yep from amino acids, energy, a lightning spark and then from the primordial ooze, bam life just happens, and then evolving into an upright walking bipod much less just a slimy amoeba floating around. Really? This is as credulous a belief as any, and this is the best theory academia can come up with, “it just happened and all by chance”? I simply don't get it

Next time when you have to explain to a lay person how we can send pictures, drawings, books, data, files, etc. over the ether halfway across the world, think about your question of communicating to God and you will have your answer, and all the backup source material you need.

Look, I apologize, I am being really sarcastic to make a point, and I do understand what you’re conveying, but please do not categorize all theologians or religious persons of faith as unreasoned or illogical, and for the smart ass that wants to argue faith and reason is mutually exclusive, do not waste your time. All and all, there are many viewpoints to each side, I make no claim to having the correct side, but I do get to form my own conclusions without prejudice or fear of malice.

Nacho: I'm a little concerned right now. About... your salvation and stuff. How come you have not been baptized?

Esqueleto: Because I never got around to it ok? I dunno why you always have to be judging me because I only believe in science.

Nacho Libre

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

budbayview

Viviane, your questions in italic, my response below.

To say "the design of animal" is not implying a designer.

In the context Cofty’s writing, is does. He referenced attributes of the animal and all attributes have a specific purpose. Thus there is relationship between purpose (requirements) and the specific attribute. Additionally, according to the definitions at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/design is does imply a designer.

Evolution isn't "by chance".

That depends on which evolutionary theory we are discussing, but let me rephrase. The deeper I study the biology of the human body, it becomes relatively clear that it is engineered and designed and has not evolved from nonadaptive causes, mutation or genetic drift (i.e. by chance).

How so?

The complexity and purpose of stem cell generation is pure genius. It is simply biological coding, the structure of the cell can be modified by giving it a new set of instructions (DNA/RNA). If one were to support the requirement of creating a type of cell that can be used over and over and morph into different cell types to fit a multitude of uses, what would be the most efficient way to accomplish this? By keeping the basic biologic structure and changing the program or instruction set. The coding (DNA/RNA) is a program design that when understood, (not that I claim to) has all the hallmarks of an intelligent creator, it was done with intent, engineered to exacting specifications.

What, specifically, are you thinking is programmed engineering by a designer?

This question has a hook and part of it represent the underlying fundamental issue of evolution versus intelligent design. Although, I do not deny the evidence of evolutionary factors on many organisms, the fact remains that there is no empirical evidence to support evolution jumping species. In other words, a fish is fish, a mammal is a mammal and humans did not evolve from some aquatic species. Evolution through natural selection is nothing more than adaption through breeding to generate the required traits for survival within a species. Whether this process is preprogrammed or a deliberate attempt from a higher power to propagate a species may be debatable. For example the process of humans selecting a desirable mate is built into our subconscious. The desirable physical traits in a male exhibit the resulting performance. Such as what a typical female is attracted to, tall, strong facial features, broad shoulders, muscular, and masculine features represent higher levels of the male hormone testosterone. This hormone is a key marker for reproduction success, and aggressive behavior. Known or unknown, we are breeding success or failure by the choices we make subconsciously. What Darwin witnessed concerning his theory of natural selection was a symptom, not the root cause. He did not identify the source of the behavior, I say the source is God.

Sure. But... there is zero evidence for it.

That is why I started by saying, “we can probably argue this till the cows come home.” However my point is that it is plausible, and actually more reasonable to theorize that if the universe came into existence as the Big Bang, it did so by the initiation of the creator as opposed to just happening. Nothing “just happens” which is why we have science, to study and provide answers to the “why”. From the first that man could write, he wrote of creation, this is a fact. The Sumerians, Mesopotamians, Babylonian’s, Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus, Aztecs, and Mayans all spoke of creation and Gods with names. Their only debate was one of whom worshiped who, and whom had the support of their superior and supreme God. They did not debate “if” God existed or “if” God created the universe or man. It is only recently that man has found the need to exclude God from the narrative and hypotheses alternative answers to the “why”.

I like what Voltaire said, "What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason.” (FAITH. - Voltaire, The Works of Voltaire, Vol. IV (Philosophical Dictionary Part 2) [1764]