Posts by budbayview

10

Armageddon 50th Anniversary

by apostrate in

well, it's been 50 years since armageddon occurred.. seems to me that things haven't really changed all that much.

is it just me or does anyone else seem to think that things have actually got worse??

?.

For me the whole prophecy thing is a philosophical dilemma. One thought, if you extrapolate societies current trajectory to solve our challenges given the breakdown in morality, the family structure, and our general FU attitude towards our fellow man, its bleak. Even 20th-century writers such as, Orwell, Huxley, Bradbury, and Burgess paint bleak outcomes and the father of AI is waring us big time. It’s not difficult to put together a few scenarios where we end ourselves. I can certainly see this, but I have an optimistic nature and can also see a path where we get our collective shite together and go down the utopian road hand in hand.

The philosophical dilemma is the prophecy, that we will fail and our only redemption is that according to the bible, our creator must step in and clean up our mess. The obvious analogy is parenting. When parents solve all their children’s problems for them, “typically”, the children never lean to be responsible. Additionally, keeping in the parental theme, if a parent subjects a young child to negative programming, such as continual patterns of reassuring the child that they never will be successful, it “typically” will be difficult for the child to recover from this negative brain washing. Sorry for the sophomoric psychology analogies, but it makes the point. Further, there is the predestiny argument with these prophecies.

So, I can see humanities problems and I think most would agree, without course correction it doesn’t end well. We have all seen that movie The Terminator of 1984, I love Sci Fi references, they are good predictors of future. If you can think it, it's gonna happen. Remember the Hunter-killer drones? In a short 41 years we go from movie concept to reality. It is the same tech the British/Ukraines used to bomb Russia's nuk bomber fleet. Think about that. That technology used AI to autonomously locate, identify and unleash weapons on a target.

My optimistic side wants to believe that collectivity, we can course correct without “Father” stepping in cleaning up the mess or telling us that we won’t amount to much. In my opinion, the eschatology prophecies just don’t pass the logic test. So that is my philosophical dilemma.

27

Do children still get destroyed at Armageddon?

by Anony Mous in

i know back in the day, that was taught, that if the parents were going to be destroyed, so would the children.

i just can't easily find reference to anything.

this thinking has been used to justify some egregious behavior towards children and their parents such as exclusion of children from jw family - why worry, the end is near, all will work itself out then - the end didn't come though.

budbayview

This question the OP posed is what spawned my long fading exodus. My logic could not come to terms with a Father dispensing judgement on children. As a child, I too remember seeing those vivid Armageddon illustrations. I remember having many end-of-the-world nightmares, waking up in total fear. It took me a few years to deprogram. I started thinking for myself and it helped me to have a child and know what lengths you will go through for your children as a parent. So as Hermes said, as above so below, and that helped me realize what we have been taught could not be true, and I rationalized if it was, I was not interested in living in that world. So, it was a moot point for me.

From the bible we are to believe that these intelligent beings, the Gods, who created us in their image, that instilled our parental, and maternal nurturing, and loving persona, that has ensured the survival of our offspring for millennia, would act any less for his human family. Could I really believe in my heart that God wants to lose any of his children, and that he would not go to great lengths to redeem them? Or was I to continue to believe that the Hebrew god, who murdered innocent children is the same creator? He put to death all the Egyptian first-born sons, turned on Moses his faithful instrument, and would have put him to death for refusing to circumcise his son, or the Hebrew god who ordered Saul and the Israelites to slaughter the Amalekites. “…in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them — the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites — as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Were these not his children too? But we are going to just dismiss this, and make an excuse that he is god and can do anything he chooses with his creation, or perhaps we reason that these children would grow up as their parents, as enemies of the Lord and therefor god in all his wisdom was justified in taking their lives? I am sorry, I cannot concede either as a rational explanation for a being that is so intelligent to have created the cosmos and all that is in it. This Hebrew god sounds more like a lesser god, a power hungry vengeful, and jealous god, and less of divine origin, or one capable of infallible righteousness and love. Further, how can we argue that we have free will and that our lives are not pre-destined if we are condemned before we have a chance to live out our lives? If we are incapable of change, then why are we going through this agony to begin with?

Gustave Deor, The Deluge

We are reminded of our compassion when we look at the work of Gustave Deor, The Deluge. Seeing the tiger clinging to this vestige of life on the last peaks of land holding its cub on high. The children hoisted by their parents to save their lives; whose agonizing last thoughts of despair matched the black of the starless night sky. The artist’s image captures an emotion of hopelessness, despair, and awakens our compassion for these lost souls. The souls that we would just relegate to collateral damage. If these actions seem incongruent with our reasoning as god’s children, created in their image, then I argue that there must be another explanation.

The notion of worship or obedience through fear of death, hell or whatever torture we want to invent, or reward of heaven or everlasting life is flawed as well. Every good parent knows this.

But at the end of the day, why does any of this matter? Because I want to know that humanity has hope, above man’s own fallible means. I want to know that the intelligent beings that created this universe, our earth, and all the living creatures on it, would not let violence, death, suffering, pain, and all the combined worlds’ atrocities to continue without a plan.

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

budbayview

Jeffro:

So it is not that simple, you need to explain the variant rate of change, relative to extinction. Your model doesn't work for this.

"Conversely, arguing that it was intentionally designed by a ‘creator’ is all kinds of messed up." Statements like this are sophomoric, that is why you can not have good discussion on this site.

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

budbayview

“The Cat, the Rat and the Parasite”. I found this fascinating as I am unable to generate a suitable argument for how this would have “evolved” in the absence of a Creator or how this parasitic behavior could be developed without an intentional design. The parasite in this instance would need to have prior knowledge of two species and their inherent behavior with each other for a reproducible, sustainable, life cycle. The parasite actually modifies the rats behavior or fear mechanisms, totally cool, but not an iterative process.

What say you, am I missing something in my parasite argument?

Some reading on the parasite if you like to nerd out.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1690701/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1286457901014599

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2013.13777

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-that-makes-a-rat-love-a-cat-86515093/

40

Was it Designed?

by Jeffro in

the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?

it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?

' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.

budbayview

I agree that the ark and deluge allegory have implications with the Intelligent Designer argument. However, this argument is flawed and is not a dependency, it’s information is not fact based, but rather a belief that a global flood occurred like the bible indicates.

We can look at what the science and research has around this, based on ice core data and sites in Turkey such as Göbekli Tepe (GT).

Ice core data suggest that there was a cataclysmic event that took place 11,000 - 12,800 years ago aligning with the Younger Dryas. However, it was very devastating, but not global. Most scholars agree, this was the event that the cultural flood myths originated from. Dating at GT far surpassed biblical chronology and there are too many other ancient sites around the globe that put sophisticated colonizing humans on this planet past 7K years by a long reach.

Ok, now that the “flood myth” is out of way, the Intelligent Designer argument can have a better foundation to proceed…

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

budbayview

One should consider that the reference material (i.e., bible) that is being sited may not be an accurate or full account. Therefore, the possibility exists for another outcome. If we argue that we are created by an intelligent designer, and we are a subset of the creator or created in the image of the gods, then our patterns of logic should be congruent with our creator. As Hermes stated,” as above so below” or the apple does not fall far from the tree then we would not be so different from our creator as our children are to us.

My point is, we are struggling to twist out a logical outcome that does fit well into the Old Testament portrayal of the Hebrew god Yahweh. Perhaps the data we are consuming is not accurate?

What if there is another story, what if we do not know everything?

9

The GB again claiming earthquakes prove it's the last days

by joey jojo in

from jw org; 2023 - a year of anxiety:.

“since the beginning of 2023, there have now been 13 earthquakes above magnitude 7 worldwide, one of the highest values since records began.”.

www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk cites 3 reasons it may seem that earthquakes are increasing in intensity and number.. 1. more population growth = more people affected.. 2. clustered statistics.

budbayview

I think they are overreaching, but here is a good resource to run your own analysis.

Lists, Maps, and Statistics | U.S. Geological Survey (usgs.gov)

Search Earthquake Catalog (usgs.gov)

Good summary below

Why are we having so many earthquakes? Has naturally occurring earthquake activity been increasing? Does this mean a big one is going to hit? OR We haven't had any earthquakes in a long time; does this mean that the pressure is building up for a big one? | U.S. Geological Survey (usgs.gov)

30

Who will be killed at Armageddon?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

if the current doctrine is that only baptised witnesses are going to survive and everyone else burns them what about this new update new light that some from before the flood and sodomites will be resurrected?.

but didn’t he mention at the agm something about there is no point jehovah killing them and then resurrecting them again?

it seems they are confused about what they teach and that’s why brother jackson joked about “is this what we used to believe or what we believe now?”.

budbayview

Here is one of my challenges with the org’s salvation interpretation. If an individual dies before the judgement cut without an understanding of Gods life T&Cs (i.e., ignorance) they get a resurrection (i.e., do-over). Notwithstanding, they come back into the world during the 1K year time, which clearly removes any ambiguity about who or if there is a God, our origins, purpose, and all these things we are guessing at or supposed to have faith in. I do not know about you, but what % of folks do you think will reject God after a resurrection in the new world? Not many, I am thinking. But for the ones that are lucky enough to be living in this hell hole currently without any visible proof of the aforementioned, and sickness, death and all that goes along with life in this $hit hole, we won’t make the cut because we are not part of an elite religious club claiming to represent God on earth. Right....that makes complete logical sense and represents a fair judgement for all humans. Really? Sorry, I cannot reason this is fair and balanced.

I find it repugnant and arrogant that any religious leaders take part in speculation about who or who will not be forgiven by our savior. I personally know many non-JWs that are kind, loving, and just good souls, better people than some of the witnesses that I have known in the truth. I cannot imagine they would be sidelined because they are not baptized JWs.

I am not a fan of eschatological theology as it sets a premise of fear motivation. Most individuals have misplaced the love for the Creator in exchange for a given behavior for either receiving of gifts (life) or out of fear (death). Anyone with children knows we want our children to love us, not because of what we can give them or what we can take away.

7

Philosophical Question

by budbayview in

according to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom.

in god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the universal creator.

accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.. here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the universal creator?

budbayview

According to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom. In god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the Universal Creator. Accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.

Here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the Universal Creator? You do not break bad like that unless you know you can win. I just cannot conceive that an intelligent creation is going on a suicide mission to prove a point just to piss-off daddy.

One possible explanation is that the illuminated serpent is not the bad guy in the story.

Another possible explanation is that we do not know the complete divine hierarchy, and we have only been exposed to a few levels down. I personally favor this as the Hebrew god Yahweh, at times displays petty, jealous, behavior, or basically not the caliber of personality and being that put all these universal pieces together.

Given the criterion that this story is rooted in reality and truth, what say you? Is there more to this universal play than we know?

21

The Great Tribulation

by Fisherman in

will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what job, jesus, roman punishment, naz&i germany, hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment?

how worse can pain and suffering get.

it is very common.

budbayview

If you look back through history, there were many events that would certainly qualify as to what that tribulation would look like.

For example, 5 million people die of smallpox in the Roman Empire, 25 million dead of bubonic plague in the Roman/Byzantine Empire. 100 million dead across Europe and Asia between 1338 to 1351 from the Black Death or bubonic plague and another 1.5 billion in the Americas dead from the combined diseases of smallpox, measles, and typhoid all before the 1900’s. Two years from 1918 to 1920 brought the Spanish flu pandemic, with mortality of 75 million across the globe. That is just a small example, there is much much more.

Just in our times, if you have ever seen any footage of a depression era dust bowl storm rolling in complete with lighting, one would imagine that was it. Or imagine you are in Japan during the time we dropped the nuclear bombs, vaporizing thousands, and leaving more with severe burns and radiation poisoning. Sipping on our espressos at Starbucks, playing house, most Americans do not have a clue. We have been desensitized to death, we are immune and unsympathetic. As I wrote in my prior post, I am not a fan of eschatological writings.

My point is this. Look at the personality of God and ask yourself do you really believe what was written down is locked in solid truth? Or maybe, we just do not know shite like we think we do.