Posts by whatif

21

Looking for others that maybe gay or questioning

by dewey79 in

jw
friends

so i am the weird case that i still believe in the jehovah's organization.

there are a couple of things that stop me from going.

is there anyone else out there that still believes?

whatif

Try this site.....

www.witnesses.plus.com

10

New financial arrangement is about ownership of the Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls

by fedup in

we may believe that the wt is having financial problems because of the sell-off that has been happening lately.

however, i think the opposite.

i believe the gb has realized that in today's world the money is in the properties that the sheepies have already paid or are paying for.

I agree that it's about ownership but I'm thinking it's more for legal purposes. Let's say it is because the GB wants this money badly...my question is why? It's not like they're living opulent life styles in total luxury or anything. I hardly think living in dormitory fashion in NY is the life. And even if they do fly first class to give talks in other countries...not too exciting of a lifestyle for a rich person. And it's not like they have kids or anything or buying their wives diamonds. So, why would they want this money badly? What's the point of owning it all?

33

Post the funniest WTBTS quote you can think of

by DuvanMuvan in

just felt like a laugh.. if any funny quotes come to mind feel free to post them here.

whatif

which stories with Andre? Don't remember them

41

Circuit Overseer wakes up, packs his bags and leaves!

by Anony Mous in

i just heard this about a co i knew back in the day before he was even a co. he must be in his mid-late 40's now, my mother told me the story as she knows the family very well (the entire family has gone 'apostate' including several elders, circuit overseers and missionaries - this was an "example" family, always on the stage etc).. he wasn't 'feeling well' so he took time off from his co duties.

that week he packed his suitcase, told his wife he can't do it anymore and he's leaving, leaves her the car and the house and went to live in a small apartment, bought a small car and a week later got a decent job.. this was very recent so not everybody within the org has heard yet what happened..

whatif

"He left her the car and the house and then bought a small car.." How many circuit overseers have a house? And how many have enough money to go buy a new car?

18

This truly pisses me off

by Terry in

http://www.jw.org/en/news/by-region/asia/kyrgyzstan/court-ruling-for-conscientious-objectors/.

december 30, 2013 | kyrgyzstan.

kyrgyzstan court rules in favor of conscientious objectors bishkek, kyrgyzstanthe constitutional chamber of the supreme court of kyrgyzstan unanimously declared on november 19, 2013, that the countrys current law on alternative service is unconstitutional and violates the right of freedom of religion.

whatif

Hi Terry, Looking forward to reading your book. In the meanwhile I was just curious to know if the alternate service you were counseled that you could not accept and remain in Jehovah's favor, was it civilian in nature or under military control?

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Thanks for the clarification Raymond. Too bad the local Bethel didn't insist on at least allowing the brothers to choose as a matter of conscience and at the very least refuse to disfellowship anyone accepting the prison work.

31

Epic FAIL! :( My sister is gone from me.

by Faithful Witness in

got this email from my sister today.

there is a lot of back story, and this isn't a surprise.

it will be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the family, if they hear about it or not.

whatif

I hope you will be able to have a good heart-to heart with her after your email. I'm wondering if it would help if you were both to agree to not discussing religion when you are together and at family events. Just enjoy doing stuff together and enjoy family time. It may remove the stress and emotions she is finding difficult to balance if she knows you're not trying to stop her from being a JW and also her not trying to get you to be a JW either.

@crazy2try: It's interesting that your mom's parents disowned her for becoming a Witness. Having lived that from her parents I'm just wondering if she did the same to you for no longer being a Witness? So true how many JW's in the 70's and 80's were unnecessarily strict to make sure there was absolutely no semblance of being like the world. It's so different today. I like how a lot of the younger couples/families plan so many fun things for their kids and not just taking them on field service everytime they have a break from school. Little girls having tea parties dressed as their favorite Disney princess. Lot of fun outings and kid parties with games, and gifts - and yes, wrapped gifts! Not to mention a lot of other occasions for parties and gift-giving. When someone moves to a new apartment/house...there's a housewarming. Someone moves away...goodbye party. Graduation parties. Anniversaries, baby showers, bridal showers, bachelor/bachelorette parties. And of course lot of gift-giving going on here with fun and games. Then there are many themed congregation get-togethers like luau's etc. I can go on and on. I would have a hard time believing JW kids today feel deprived. The new generation are getting way more gifts than their counterparts get for b-days and Christmas. I think that's terrific of the parents today. They don't want their kids going to school saying they don't get gifts nor feel like they are missing something because of being a JW. In the 70's it was like parents were going out of their way to make sure their kids stood out like a sore thumb. It was a different world and a different time.

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Hi Raymond, thank you for providing this link about conscientious objectors to military service in Greece. I found it very interesting.

I noted it said:

"In September 1977, on the last day of the Parliamentary sessions, the Karamanlis government of New Democracy (right party) passes law 731, under the pressure of international organizations and especially of the Council of Europe. According to this law, those who refuse to be drafted for religious reasons can choose between serving a four-year unarmed service in a camp and getting imprisoned for four years in military prisons, being exempted afterwards from any new call to serve. Two years before, during the constitutional reform of 1975, the proposal of PA.SO.K. (Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement) for the institution of an alternative civil service for those who refuse to serve their military service for religious or ideological reasons had been rejected by the ruling party of New Democracy."

Before Greece actually allowed alternative civil service the choice for religious objectors was either to serve the military in a military camp in unarmed service or be imprisoned. Both choices were for 4 years which was double the time of those doing military service. There was no civil service. JW's obviously chose to be imprisoned to serving the military even though in unarmed service. At the end of the article it says,

"As expected, the law did not solve the several and complex problems which had been accumulated all these years. Nevertheless, its voting was welcomed as a positive step both by abroad and by the Greek conscientious objectors who chose to support the institution with their participation. From 1998 until today, around 2000 conscientious objectors (the vast majority being Jehovah’s Witnesses) have served or are serving an alternative civilian service."

On that same site, http://www.antirrisies.gr/upr2011 it mentions that this law was first introduced in 1997. There doesn't seem to have been a choice of civilian service prior to that.

The right to Conscientious Objection in Greece

"(4) Law 2510 of 1997, the first law introducing civilian service, was the result of European and UN pressure, but the majority of its provisions had a punitive and discriminatory character for conscientious objectors. In 2005, the law was reformed (Law 3421/2005), but with no substantial changes. In September 2010 a new Law (3883/2010) was introduced. According to this law, the duration of civilian service is double than the military one, which is obviously punitive in nature. The duration may be decreased by decision of the Minister of Defence, but must be equal to the maximum duration of the military service increased by at least two months. Currently this would equal 14 months, because the military service in the naval and air forces lasts 12 months. So again it would be punitive because the military service in the land forces lasts nine months and it’s this that the vast majority of the conscripts serve."

Also, if you go to the War Resisters' web site, http://www.wri-irg.org/programmes/world_survey/country_report/en/Greece

it confirms when Greece began offering alternative civil service:

Conscientious objection

Conscientious objection for conscripts

The right to conscientious objection was first recognised in 1997 with Law 2510/19978. This law came into effect on 1 January 1998. Presently, this right is regulated by Law 3421/2005. Both religious and non-religious grounds for conscientious objection are legally recognised.

And as noted above, From 1998 until today, around 2000 conscientious objectors (the vast majority being Jehovah’s Witnesses) have served or are serving an alternative civilian service."

In your post above, you wrote,

"Greece didn't offer any alternative civic service up to the late 80's .When that happened many brothers accepted to work in prison under the supervision of the Ministry of Defence .Initially Bethel gave "the green light" for accepting these jobs ,then changed their mind and gave them an ultimatum ,resign or be disfellowshiped ."

Any research I did only came up with substitute civil service being available in 1998. Are you able to provide proof to your post above?

Thanks.

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Smiddy, as you mention, Greece never offered alternative service. It was either military or prison (with torture) no other choice. And the brothers would get re-sentenced over and over again. But it was my understanding that the brothers were fighting to get alternative service offered to them. That is, civilian service in lieu of military. It was Greece who would not allow it and thus the many human rights court cases as a result of this. And when Greece finally, after a lot of supreme court trials, offered civilian service to JW conscientious objectors it was a major victory and was greatly rejoiced over and accepted. They always wanted to do civil service as a substitute to the obligatory military draft for young men in Greece.

31

Epic FAIL! :( My sister is gone from me.

by Faithful Witness in

got this email from my sister today.

there is a lot of back story, and this isn't a surprise.

it will be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the family, if they hear about it or not.

whatif

Sorry to hear your sister has cut you off. Only you and her can know why this has affected her so emotionally to resort to that when it just doesn't make sense at least to me. I truly hope the situation can resolve itself with a happy outcome for both of you. So sad when this happens...wish you all the best through this trying time.

@crazy2try: You say that if your relatives had tried to give more gifts you knew your parents would not have permitted them. I don't understand why the gifts had to be given casually and unwrapped and why you feel your parents would not have let them give you more. JW's don't have anything against giving or receiving gifts, whether wrapped or unwrapped, as a surprise or not, and for any occasion other than a holiday they don't celebrate and to and from anyone - JW or not. I can understand your being hurt if your parents did that but they made up their own rules for that. There are no JW rules on gift giving. It's only the holidays they don't celebrate.