What one sentence could you say to a JW that would stick with them? (page 5)

vitty

I remember at an assembly the speaker said "Some ppl accuse us of being brain washed, well with all the filth in the world I want my brain washed" to which he got a resounding applause

googlemagoogle

"if it's the truth, it can address all criticism. why are you so afraid of apostates?"

Cygnus

The 1914/1919/remnant/FDS thing is good for Witnesses who think critically.

For Witnesses who are more concerned with human rights, the shunning thing might get to them. "Where in the Bible does it say to give the silent treatment to those who might have other ideas about non-salvation issues?" It's pretty easy to show a form of disfellowshipping in the Bible, but absolute shunning, no. In fact,

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Rbi8 3 John 9-10 ***

9

I wrote something to the congregation, but Di·ot´re·phes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. 10 That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation.

Yet John doesn't say anything about forming a judicial committee against Diotrephes, and makes a point that his throwing people out (DFing them) is the wrong way to handle disagreement.

When pressed, and when asked to speak in their own words, Witnesses will have to agree that absolute shunning is just wrong. DFing, as in not sharing in worship -- maybe. But treating people like they're dead is simply wicked.

AlmostAtheist

Hey All,

Sorry I neglected this thread. Thank you for doing such a great job with it! It's clear from the experiences listed that not all dubs are created equally and what is a shocker to one would be a yawner to another. No "magic bullet", as one or two of you mentioned.

And WillyLoman's point was terrifyingly correct:

dubs don't react the way normal human beings do to stuff like logic and reason. They are brainwashed, remember? Their thinking faculties aren't firing on all cylinders. Surely y'all remember what that was like?

I'm not sure we all do remember. I know I don't entirely. I can remember that I wouldn't have listened to much, but getting back inside that JW head is not as easy as it sounds.

This is encouraging:

I known quite a few Jehovah’s Witnesses who have doubts and concerns about the Watchtower Society that they are not allowed to talk to each other about. They have found it really useful to have someone understanding, like me, they can talk to in confidence.

Identifying who they are and letting them know you exist would be the trick.

I ran through the thread and pulled out the one-liners, then categorized them. (I also added a couple) This is a first shot at it, and if I missed anybody's pithy comments, please smack me with a flounder and let me know. I'll fix it. I also tried a few different ways to organize these and I didn't like any of them. This presentation is the one I disliked the least. It should be pointed out that there are folks on this board today because someone said something like this to them while they were a dub, even from the sections I marked "unlikely to work". So keep an open mind about what might be worth saying.

The "doubts they have already had" section is promising, since it tells them that they aren't alone in their doubts. The Watchtower's done a good job telling dubs that they should fight doubts, even offering examples of things people might doubt, building up their resistance to this. But it's promising.

== remind them of doubts they have probably already had themselves ==How can an organization really be directly led by the one true infallible God while at the same time claiming it makes mistakes and has New Light?
"Happiest people in the world"?
"No one else has love among themselves like we do"?
"Elders deserve double honor because they are glorious ones"?
Never ignore red flags!!!

Watchtower dishonesty is documented and largely hidden by Brooklyn. This seems like a good area to pursue.

== show examples of Watchtower dishonesty ==Watchtower was affiliated with the UN for over ten years, and to check it out on the official UN website.
"apostates" or "opposers" know more about the history of the WTS than the average JW
Why does the WTS claim it didn't predict Thee End would come in approximately 1975 when the prediction is printed right in its own literature?
"lying through omission" by trying to stop people from having a FULL disclosure of what they printed and taught years ago.
"Did you know many of the quotes from scientists in the 'Creation' book are taken out of context? Look it up for yourself."
"Did you know many of the quotes from theologians in the 'Trinity' brochure are taken out of context? Look it up for yourself."

The "lack proof" category is interesting and would get them researching and talking to you, but since they ultimately look to the FDS for the "final word", lack of proof wouldn't be that bad for them. Their "proof" comes in the form of "reasoning" from the FDS.

== show that they lack proof for their firmly held beliefs =="Can you prove, from the Bible, that Jesus chose the Bible Students to be his Faithful and Discreet Slave in 1919?"
Does salvation come through an organization or is it through Jesus Christ?
Prove it! All of it! Once you've proved it to yourself, then try and prove it to me.
Prove to me that God even exists

I can't see getting anywhere with the "valuelessness of their life course" category. As a dub, they fully expect people to believe they're crazy, just like [some bible example] that was laughed at for [something god told him to do].

== point out the valuelessness of their life course ==
"Go score your paradise hours somewhere else"
"It kinda sucks knowing that God is going to kill me any time now."
"I have two words for you, and I'll leave you in peace: 'Cognitive Dissonance'"
You stinking absolutist.

The "verifiably wrong" section would be unlikely to take hold since they have "answers" for them, even though they are wrong answers. Any argument that starts from "JW's used to believe... but now..." I think is doomed because of the New Light doctrine. Even though they believe Jesus "chose" them in 1918/19, he would surely recognize that they were working toward total truthfulness, and sure enough the "light has gotten brighter".

== point out where the are verifiably wrong ==
Jerusalem was never destroyed in 607 but 587, and to go to the library and check it out.
the insane blood policy that has killed so many of the years
evolution is a fact whether they like it or not and to do some research over at the Talk Origins website
JWs taught around the time Jesus allegedly chose them in 1919; things the WTS could consider apostate
"If I were a member of any other religion and you were calling at my door, and I described all the horrible things that were done to me by people in my congregation, you would tell me that it proves that there is NO LOVE in that particular church and that it did not represent God;"
"If you really do believe it's the truth, there should be absolutely no excuses; you should be doing more to follow the governing body and spread the word."
"Where in the Bible does it say to give the silent treatment to those who might have other ideas about non-salvation issues?"

"Appeals to reason" -- as much as I like them -- don't seem likely to produce results. This is a group of people that uses phrases like "wicked reasonings", "apostate thinking", and "bad thoughts", so it's hard to imagine them entertaining a "bad thought".

== appeals to reason/logic/emotion == "my son had nearly died but had ultimately not needed blood, even though the doctors said he would. The woman at the door looked at us, silent for a moment, then said, I'm sorry, but that's absurd."
When others tell you how to live, check their references!
"If you suspected you were brainwashed -- deluded -- how would you determine if it was true?"
"I would rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question."
"Don't trust the elders with personal information."
"Prisons have Watchtowers too."
"if it's the truth, it can address all criticism. why are you so afraid of apostates?"
"My mother joined your religion, and it destroyed our family. I know everything I need to know about you people".
"We evolved from apes."

== other ==
"Jesus sought out apostates to follow him. (John 9:34, 35)"
"I believe in Jehovah God, the Bible he gave us (39 + 27) and nothing else matters."

AuldSoul

I was told this morning by an ex-elder, "Don't expect anything deep from me. I stopped doing that to myself, I won't go that road anymore. That almost took me out of the truth." So much for digging as for silver and hid treasures...

...if people will not reason they will not wake up.

AuldSoul

Scully

"if it's the truth, it can address all criticism. why are you so afraid of apostates?"

I've asked a similar question:

If this is the truth, it will stand up to investigation on all levels - the Bible talks about "the tested quality of your faith" and "making sure of all things"; are you afraid that somehow it won't?

2. I'd rather have questions I can't answer than answers I can't question.

3. (Mulan's) I will never again bet my life on a belief, I might be wrong.

4. The "Truth" should stand up to any questioning, so why not question?

steve2

alamb's summation in the previous post is good.

lots of good ideas coming through.

But AuldSoul hit the nail on the head with this:

...if people will not reason they will not wake up.

So, if individual JWs refuse to take personal responsibility for thinking issues through, they will remain in the fog and yet think it's sunshine.

What one sentence could you say to a JW that would stick with them?

vitty

googlemagoogle

Cygnus

AlmostAtheist

AuldSoul

Scully

xjwms

stillconcerned

alamb

steve2

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