Ritsfield Victory!

by silentlambs 115 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  JanH

  Dear Tina,

  There is a lot of space between hysteria and rationality. While few messages here border on hysteria, few, too, demonstrate the detached view required by rational analysis. Some responses to MadApostate and Wendy did border on hysterical, IMO. Both made points that were simply ignored, and some seems to have responded "how dare you ask me to think rationally? I am a victim!" (Of course, in a sense, they are right.)

  My point was that you just can't mix victim's stories and the support for victims with rational discussions about the punishment and/or treatments of the accused. It would be insensitive to both.

  Finally, I am sorry I don't share your faith in human progress on this topic, Tina. I just read the article in Salon on http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2001/08/20/morris/index.html and it writes in part:

  "In that time, a moral panic of gargantuan proportions has swept the land. Last summer in the English coastal town of Portsmouth, egged on by English tabloids running a "name and shame" campaign, mobs of vigilantes roamed the streets like medieval peasants. But instead of pitchforks they carried knuckle dusters and baseball bats, and rather than hunchbacks they were seeking "kiddie fiddlers," who existed only in the minds of the mob.

  Dozens of people were wrongly accused, and one man, a pediatrician, had to leave the area after some of the protesters were confused by the term and torched his house. The pediatrician managed to keep his name out of the press, for fear that more crime might follow him. Another pediatrician, 30-year-old Yvette Cloete, had to leave her home in Gwent, South Wales after it was vandalized: Cloete arrived home from work to see the word "paedo" daubed all over her walls. Police say "the astonishing ignorance" of local anti-pedophile protestors forced her out. "

  When the British behave like this, I cannot find myself expecting much better from others. When emotions are strong, people can be driven to mob hysteria in no time. And I think that will do far worse damage than what individual child abusers have done. Partly because many innocents will be hurt, but mostly becuase the backlash that will mean that future victims is not believed, and criminals will not be brought to justice.

  On a lighter note, I just got word I have posted 666 messages to this board now. This will be the 667th. Appropriate considering the topic, I guess... Always the Devil's advocate.

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
• 

  outnfree

  Hey, Mr. Devil Man!!!!

  That salon article just boggles the mind! I replied in another thread that I think pedophilia is a far-reaching, ongoing crime that warrants tough action against the perpetrators. But mob justice?
  Vigilanteism? No. I was astonished to read what's been happening in Britain.

  outnfree

  Par dessus toutes choses, soyez bons. La bonte est ce qui ressemble le plus a Dieu et ce qui desarme le plus les hommes -- Lacordaire
• 

  mommy

  I agree Jan. Perhaps I should have bridled my tongue due to the sensitive nature of the topic. There have been a few emotional topics brought up on this discussion board, and all chances of having a rational discussion are lost.

  I do not want it to be lost, myself, and 5 of my sisters are victims of a pedophile(yes a real one, not just a labeled one) Fortunalty we were able to help each other through the memories, and anger we had years ago. Two of my sisters have still not fully recovered and have turned their anger to men in general, hopefully one day they will be able to seperate their painful experiences and move on the best they can. It is a tribute to the human spirit to see a survivor turn their anger into positive goals.

  One last point I would like to make this is such an emotionally charged issue. Also every case is different so broad statements cannot be used, IMO. Many who have commented are correct in stating that the victims lives are forever changed. And it really is a sad thing that one person has the ability to change your life.

  But there are many things that happen in this world that can affect the rest of your life. Murderers who willfully murder will affect the lives of all of the loved ones of the victim. Strangly though society does not put murderers away forever. In rare cases they do, but again we are going into the differences in the cases. To make such a broad general statement that people who molest a child, or even labeling them pedophiles, even if their first offense is really unfair.

  I am not taking the side of a pedophile, and I will be the first one who will stand up for the rights of a child. I do stand by what I say and feel that a broad statement and sentence to prison forever is not the way to go though. Life is not black and white, we must remember the gray areas.
  wendy

  In a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
• 

  MadApostate

  JanH:

  I agree that to try to reason with a "bloodthirsty mob", that has already "tasted blood", is taking one's own life in one's hands. That's why I stayed out of it for as long as I did, even though their bloodlust celebration was disgusting.

  However, when the "village idiots" appeared to be ready to "stone" a second person, I thought it was time to bring them to their senses.

  Some were! But then there is DragQueen Tina. Oh well, at least she is consistent.
• 

  waiting

  Hello MadAp,

  There's been way too many threads that have ended up 10,12,14 pages because of speeches like you just gave. I believe the web technical term is "trolling" - trying to start an argument.

  If I'm reading correctly, the reason you were insultive to me (using caps as in yelling, using strong curse words as in not being able to communicate efficiently without them) was because I was trying to stay out of it - mainly because the women involved are quite capable of handling it themselves - and suggested you do the same.

  If you were around with the infamous JanH vs Riz vs tj threads you would readily remember how fast anger & misrepresentation can happen here. Btw, JahH and Riz handled it quite nicely between themselves - it was others who came into the discussion that made it an enormous *situation.*

  Child rape/incest is by it's very nature emotional. Adult rape nonetheless emotional. It's damning to the victim/survivor. To fan the flames of emotions - and then curse the posters who are victims/survivors for showing emotions as if you're trying to get them to think rationally - is an act of a person who's looking for a nasty argument, imho.

  As for hysteria - we had a long discussion on that several months ago. It can affect men and women - but in the usa, it's used as primarily a woman's diagnosis, at least until recently. Ask Trevor for information - he is a mental health professional and we were in the discussion together. Perhaps you'll like his answers better than Tina's, eh?

  Thus, why not take your own advice given further down in you post, AND STAY THE FUCK OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION!!! - MadApostate

  Since we only have typewritten words here - and the words and how they're written are our only clues to a person's emotional state......I again offer you a suggestion.........it could very well be perceived that the person who starts using capital letters and numerous exclamation points and strong curse words written in capitals letters might be perceived as the hysterical poster, no matter their gender.

  waiting
• 

  msil

  .
• 

  bijou

  MadAp said:

  JanH:

  I agree that to try to reason with a "bloodthirsty mob", that has already "tasted blood", is taking one's own life in
  one's hands. That's why I stayed out of it for as long as I did, even though their bloodlust celebration was
  disgusting.

  JanH, I read your post and thought that is was sensitive, well-worded and inoffensive. Sheesh and now I read that Mad Ap agrees with you about that disgusting, blood thirsty mob! Amazing.....either I read you wrong or MadAp is simply trolling.

  About the quote from "salon". I read the part about the paediatricians being driven out of town by confused locals, unsure of the term, and thought it was part of the farce by Morris.....did that really happen? It sounded like something out of a Monty Python script!

  P.S. Congratulations to Erica for her victory!
• 

  Tina

  I told ya dude(madap) get anew insult lol.The drag queen one is old.
  You just invalidated everything you wrote by being irrational. Your swearing at 'waiting' your continued insults to me.....we see who can't argue rationally,and it's YOU lol. How's Oz this time of year?
  or you're the other troll clan who used that same insult(and the ONLY) ones over and over.You do give yourself away.lol
  Consider yourself on the ignore list,,,,Btw Jan is a good friend of mine,we can disagree without insulting each other(unlike you) I don't think calling me dragqueen is gonna endear you to him lol
• 

  JanH

  Hi Bijou,

  JanH, I read your post and thought that is was sensitive, well-worded and inoffensive.

  Thank you. A turn-up for the books, eh?

  Sheesh and now I read that Mad Ap agrees with you about that disgusting, blood thirsty mob! Amazing.....either I read you wrong or MadAp is simply trolling.

  I don't think MadAp is trolling, no. And you did not read me wrong.

  I think MadApp means what he says, and then he's not a troll (overused phrase here, IMO). Some of what he says (what I quoted) I agree with, and that is what I thought about when responding. It is well worth being careful in these issues. His attack on many posters, especially Tina, was unwarranted and insensitive. It is unwise to make inflammatory and insensitive statements, as MadApp does, if his objective is to add reason to the debate.
  

  About the quote from "salon". I read the part about the paediatricians being driven out of town by confused locals, unsure of the term, and thought it was part of the farce by Morris.....did that really happen? It sounded like something out of a Monty Python script!

  Oh yes, all that happened. Tensions in Britain were high after some young girl had disappeared, and the insane tabloids were appealing to the most primitive instincts of the masses. Very ugly. If you search on the terms and names given in Salon, in British news sources, like http://news.bbc.co.uk you should be able to find more information.

  - Jan
  --
  Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
• 

  mommy

  Due to all of the strong language, and outright insults that MAdAp is using. I feel it is tme for a disclaimer, I agree with the following words, nothing more.

  I am also sickened at the bloodlust of the same persons who fail to realize that there are more lives ruined/destroyed here than just Ericas. I fully support lifeterm incarceration of proven pedophiles, because that is what is bet for society. However, I DO NOT rejoice in the fact that a human life is reduced to that existence. I feel deep regret for any human that reaches that point. All of us are sum totals of our genetics and our formative environment, neither of which we had any control. When those factors combine to create a "Hitler", I consider it a great tragedy- obviously for those harmed by the villian, but for the villian also.

  
  wendy

  (((hugs Tina)))) Seems I remember the drag queen comment as well and it was coming from troll

  In a controversy the instant we feel anger, we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.