Leolaia --- So how do you explain the death stroke that kills the beast and then revives itself ? When I read the part about the the whore I'm so reminded of the catholic church even , the official colors of the catholic church are purple and scarlet just like that of the whore . I did read the Revelation 11:8 scripture again and I don't think it is literally talking about jerusalem .It says in a spiritual sense called sodom and egypt just like the death of the prophets is not literal . We know that sodom and egypt were the least spiritual places during the old testament that received severe punishment for the deads done to Israel . The sodomites even tried to rape an angel . That's how depraved they were .....
Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem 59 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JosephMalik
Are the 144,000 symbolic or literal? Symbolic is correct. They are as symbolic as the tribes they represent. Such tribes are not literal now because they have Gentiles spliced in which are also represented in this number. This is an illustration that maintains continuity with OT kingdom promises and demonstrates how that kingdom structure will continue into this kingdom now being introduced. This kingdom will consist of such 144,000 (only faithful disciples or slaves to which the New Covenant promises for ruler ship apply) who are resurrected along with a great crowd (decent human beings selected from the Nations, the seed of the woman Eve) also resurrected into this kingdom with Christ as King. Only now will such sheep that came out the great tribulation that embraced mankind from the time sin entered into the world get the opportunity to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The 144,000 have already done so and are justified as a result thus second death has no authority over them. We now see in vision this Kingdom in its entirety, how it was born and how it will be structured and function. We now know who is in it and where they came from. Not a bad snapshot for what is to come.
Joseph P.S. If you are a Christian then you are spiritually a Jew and part of the 12 tribes of Israel. Christianity is not divided into classes, only tribes as you see here. There are no Christians that come out of the this great tribulation pictured here. Christians were simply part of it as was the rest of mankind but now we see them as already sealed, (justified or saved). This great crowd are people of the Nations our Lord also brings in as described in Matt chapter 25. They are the sheep seperated from among the goats or the wheat selected from among the weeds. They are that humanity found in the book of life and thus found worthy of entrance. What we do now matters and will determine if we are worthy to enter this kingdom for whatever reason be it a Jew or a sheep.
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Narkissos
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the people of Israel.
Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who have been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; these follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been redeemed from humankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found; they are blameless.
After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands.
They cried out in a loud voice, saying,
"Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, singing,
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom
and thanksgiving and honor
and power and might
be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from?"
I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and worship him day and night within his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
They will hunger no more, and thirst no more;
the sun will not strike them,
nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of the water of life,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
"Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power to our God,
for his judgments are true and just;
he has judged the great whore
who corrupted the earth with her fornication,
and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants."How any of those descriptions could apply to "non-Christians" is beyond me.
I guess the reluctance to read what is plainly written, i.e. martyrdom in the broadest sense of the term, is somehow related to the Protestant emphasis on substitutive atonement. Jesus suffers and dies so that we do not have suffer and die; he shed his blood that we do not shed ours. This is hardly the point anywhere in the NT, not even in Paul (as I tried to point out in another thread on Romans 6): "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ--if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him."
The clear emphasis of Revelation, at least, is that the "great multitude in white robes" have joined their own blood to the blood of the lamb.
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peacefulpete
Heathen I'm sure there was extensive discussion about this before but as ususal without a search function it is lost. Anyway do some research on the widely believed Nero revivicus rumours of the day. Nero was anticipated to return to life and bring the Parthian cavalry to retake the throne, it was also apparently thought in Christian circles that Domitian was Nero Revivicus because of his persecution. Remember the work is believed to have been originally at least 2 separate Jewish apocalyptic works that were later modified and expanded by a Christain author.
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Leolaia
Leolaia --- So how do you explain the death stroke that kills the beast and then revives itself ?
Nero redivivus, as I mentioned earlier. Nero had died, supposedly, but he's coming back to make war against his enemies (with the Parthian army). This was the widespread concept in the Roman empire in the late first century and early second century. See Suetonius (c. AD 69-140) who wrote that after Nero's death there appeared "his statues on the rostra in the fringed toga" and "now his edicts, as if he were still alive and would shortly return and deal destruction to his enemies" (Nero, 57). Dio Chrysostom (in c. AD 88) stated that "the great majority believe that he is still alive, although in a certain sense he died not once but often along with those who had been firmly convinced that he was still alive" (Oratio 21.10). The Roman historian Tacitus (writing in AD 109) described several incidents in which pretenders claimed to actually be Nero. In one, "the armies of Parthia were all but set in motion by the cheat of a counterfeit Nero" (Historia 1.2), in another "Achaia and Asia Minor were terrified by a false report that Nero was at hand. Various rumours were current about his death; and so there were many who pretended and believed that he was still alive" (2.8). Juvenal (Satyricon, 4.38) referred to Emperor Domitian as "Nero". The Jewish Sibylline Oracles bear the closest similarity to Revelation. Referring to Rome as Babylon, they describe the returned Nero as performing miraculous feats and unleashing his terror against the Roman empire:
"Then Beliar will come from the Sebastenoi [i.e. from the line of Augustus Caesar], and he will raise up the height of mountains, he will raise the sea, and he will raise up the dead, and perform many signs for men" (3:46-67)
"Then a great king will flee from Italy like a runaway slave unseen and unheard over the channel of the Euphrates, when he dares to incur a maternal curse for repulsive murder [i.e. Nero] and many other things, confidently, with wicked hand. When he runs away, beyond the Parthian land, many will bloody the ground for the throne of Rome. A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire...Then the strife of war being aroused will come to the West, and the fugitive from Rome will also come, brandishing a great spear, having crossed the Euphrates with many myriads" (4.119-148).
"One who has fifty as an initial [i.e. Nero, N=50 in gematria; compare the gematria in 666 = NERON KAISAR] will be commander, a terrible snake, breathing out grievous war, who one day will lay hands on his own family and slay them, and throw everything into confusion, athlete, charioteer, murderer, one who dares ten thousand things. He will also cut the mountain between two seas and defile it with gore. But even when he disappears he will be destructive. Then he will return declaring himself equal to God. But he will prove that he is not...The one who obtained the land of the Persians will fight, and killing every man he will destroy all life so that a one-third portion will remain for mortals. He himself will rush in with a light bound for the West, besieging the entire land, laying it all waste" (5.28-34, 101-105).
The poets will bewail thrice-wretched Greece when a great king of great Rome, a godlike man from Italy, will cut the ridge of the isthmus. Him, they say, Zeus himself begot and lady Hera. Playing at theatricals with honey-sweet songs rendered with melodious voice, he will destroy many men, and his wretched mother. He will flee from Babylon [i.e. Rome], a terrible and shameless prince whom all mortals and noble men despise. He will come to the Medes and the Persians, those whom he first desired and to whom he gave glory....Effeminate and unjust, evil city, ill-fated above all. Alas, city of Latin land, unclean in all things, maenad, rejoicing in vipers, as a widow you sit by the banks, and the river Tiber will weep for you, its consort. A man who is a matricide will come from the ends of the earth in flight and devising penetrating schemes in his mind. He will destroy every land and conquer all and consider all things more widely than all men. .... There will come upon men a great war from the West, blood will flow up to the bank of deep-eddying rivers...Woe to you Babylon, of golden throne and golden sandal. ...Terrible Parthians made you shake all over... In the last time, one day the sea will be dry and ships will then no longer sail to Italy" (5.137-148, 167-179, 434-448).
In Revelation, we read that the Beast with seven heads had been given the Dragon's "throne and worldwide authority". Then "one of its heads seemed to have a fatal wound but that this deadly injury had healed and then the whole world had marvelled and followed the Beast" (13:2-3). Then in 17:10, we learn that the seven heads represent a line of seven kings, i.e. the Sebastenoi, the Caesars of Rome. Thus, the head that seemed to have died in ch. 13 is a king who had appeared to have died but lived. Then 17:11 makes everything clear: "The Beast, who once was and now is not, is at the same time the eighth and one of the seven, and he is going to destruction". That is, the Beast is himself "one of the seven" (i.e. Nero), and yet he returns as "the eighth" king, and he "once was and now is not", i.e. at the time this oracle was written, this king "once had lived" but now "is not", i.e. does not live. The language is meant to evoke the death and resurrection of Jesus: "I am the living one; I was dead and now I am alive forever and ever" (1:17). The author thus understands the Nero redivivus myth in a distinctly Christian way, as a profane mimicking Jesus' death and resurrection.
This interpretation, by the way, is the oldest known understanding of these passages in Revelation (i.e. probably the original one). Thus Victorinus, commenting on 13:3, identified the head that suffered the mortal wound with Nero (Commentary in Apocalypse 13, 17.3), and Commodian similarly expected Nero to be resurrected from hell (Instructiones, 41.7).
When I read the part about the the whore I'm so reminded of the catholic church even, the official colors of the catholic church are purple and scarlet just like that of the whore.
Again, the woman dressed in purple and scarlet represents the city that was then ruling over the kings of the earth (17:18). Revelation 18:16 states this again: "The great city, clothed in linen and purple and scarlet and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls". While in 17:3 the woman is described as dressed in such colors and with such jewels, in 18:16 the same language explicitly denotes the elegance of the city, symbolized by the woman. Moreover, as you probably know, purple was the color of royalty in the ancient world (cf. Judges 8:26, Esther 8:15, Lamentations 4:5, Daniel 5:7, 16, 29; 1 Maccabees 10:20, 62-64, 11:58, 14:43; Sirach 40:4, Mark 15:17, John 19:2), while scarlet symbolized one's wealthy status (cf. 2 Samuel 1:24, Proverbs 31:21, Jeremiah 4:20), and possibly royalty (cf. Matthew 27:28, which describes Jesus' mock-royal cloak as "scarlet" whereas Mark 15:17 describes it as "purple). You may be reminded of the Catholic Church, but ancient readers would naturally have thought of the political power (i.e. 17:18) and wealth (i.e. 18:11-23) of the "city" (stated explicitly in 17:18, 18:16). The jewels, gold ornaments, and pearls worn by the woman described in the same sentence also symbolize the city's wealth. This is again described in ch. 18, which contains an exquisite description of the trade carried on by Rome, including "merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and pearls, and fine linen cloth, and purple material and silk" (18:12), among other things. These are the exact same things the previous chapter had likened to the woman's clothing and 18:16 describes as "worn" by the city itself. That a city's gaudy display of wealth can be likened to a prostitute's apparel is shown by the first-century writer Plutarch who wrote: "We are gilding and beautifying our city which, like a shameless woman, adds to her wardrobe precious stones and costly statues and temples worth millions" (Pericles 12.2). Finally, the international trade carried on by Babylon described in ch. 18, which involved goods from Africa, silk from China, grain from Egypt, spices from East Asia, and most importantly "slaves", is a perfectly accurate description of the commerce carried on by Rome in the first century.
I did read the Revelation 11:8 scripture again and I don't think it is literally talking about jerusalem .It says in a spiritual sense called sodom and egypt just like the death of the prophets is not literal.
The text describes a "great city" that has "public squares", and identifies this city as the place "where the Lord was also crucified" (11:8), and where John was given a measuring rod to "measure the sanctuary and the altar" of the Temple (11:1), while "the holy city was being trampled by the Gentiles for forty-two months" (11:2), the same period of time the two prophets (likely Elijah and Moses) are to prophesy in the city (v. 2). All of this points to Jerusalem, which has similarly been trampled by the Gentiles, where Jesus was crucified, and which was called the "holy city" (cf. Isaiah 66:20 LXX, Joel 4:17 LXX, Tobit 13:10, Daniel 3:28). The parallel in the Apocalypse of Elijah also clearly points to Jerusalem. This book describes a woman named Tabitha (= the woman of ch. 12 of Revelation) who hears that the Shameless One (= the Beast of Revelation) is going to establish himself in the sanctuary of the Temple (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and she rushes out "to Judea to reprove him as far as Jerusalem". There the Shameless One "will become angry with the young woman" and pursue her to the far regions (cf. Revelation 12:6, 13-14, 17), and then he kills her and tosses her "onto the Temple", where she will then later "rise up alive and rebuke him" (14:9-15:7). Chapter 4 of the Apocalypse of Elijah tells the same story, but now involving the two witnesses Elijah and Enoch who learn that the Shameless One was going to appear in the Temple and they descend to give a speech denouncing the Shameless One, who fights them "for seven days in the marketplace of the great city", killing them, and "they lie for 3 1/2 days in the marketplace", after which they "rise up and again denounce the Shameless One" (Apocalypse of Elijah 4:7-19). Revelation and the Apocalypse of Elijah, in turn, seem to derive from a common source, mostly likely something like the Oracles of Hystaspes that Lactantius (Divine Instititutes, 7.17.1-8) was influenced by when he described a very similar but distinct scenario. The two prophets were likely originally Elijah and Enoch (not Elijah and Moses as indicated in Revelation), who were the two figures in the Apocalypse of Elijah killed by the Shameless One, and who both were expected to return shortly before the End; thus Augustine (Epistle 193.3-5; De Gen. ad. litt. 9.5) claimed that Enoch and Elijah would return and be killed together by the Antichrist, and the Acts of Pilate also states: "I am Enoch, who pleased God and was removed here by him. And this is Elijah the Tishbite. We shall live until the end of the world. But then we shall be sent by God to withstand the Antichrist and to be killed by him. And after three days we shall rise again and be caught up in the clouds" (25).
We know that sodom and egypt were the least spiritual places during the old testament that received severe punishment for the deads done to Israel . The sodomites even tried to rape an angel . That's how depraved they were .....
Note though that this is likely an allusion to Isaiah 1:7-10, which refers to Jerusalem as "Sodom": "Your land is desolate, your towns are burnt down, your fields are laid waste by strangers, all is desolation, as after the fall of Sodom. The daughter of Zion is left like a shanty in a vineyard, like a shed in a melon patch, like a besieged city. We should be like Sodom, we should now be like Gomorrah. Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the command of God, you people of Gomorrah" (cf. v. 1, "concerning Judah and Jerusalem"). Thus, Sodom was used as a nickname for Jerusalem.
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JosephMalik
How any of those descriptions could apply to "non-Christians" is beyond me. Narkissos, Sure take scriptures that do not apply to this argument mix them in with one that does and then say how you arrived at your conclusion is beyond me? I will tell you how. The one that does not apply to Christians is this one: After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" They are not Jews at the time of this Kingdom as Christians are or did you fail to notice? And John did not even recognize them so we learn this about them: I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them. They will hunger no more, and thirst no more; the sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." Does does not sound like Christians to me. You are now looking at people brought to life simply because they came out of the great tribulation, taken out of earth’s general population and not because they were witnesses to Jesus. They need shelter while Christians already have one of the many abodes promised by our Lord. They will be shepherded as they still need shepherding and guidance. These are things our Lord’s disciples already achieved. You are seeing the salvation of this great crowd after the fact, after they are brought into the kingdom and realize what happened to them. You now see them adjusting to their new found circumstances. They now wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb for the first time in their lives while our Lords disciples did that long before they died. They now try to make peace with our Lord bearing palm branches and worship him day and night within his temple (which will be here on earth by the way). You are now seeing the Sheep like the thief that died next to our Lord that were separated from the goats at this time of judgment. Joseph
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Narkissos
Joseph,
The passages I quoted, deliberately without any comment, are all from Revelation as you know. They are linked by a number of words and expressions (the most material facts you can get from a text) -- blood, great multitude, number completed, white robes etc. -- which objectively relate them to each other, and point, inductively, to the structure and working of the symbolical network of the text itself..
Otoh:
I will tell you how. The one that does not apply to Christians is this one: After this I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" They are not Jews at the time of this Kingdom as Christians are (??) or did you fail to notice?
Does this sound like Christians to you? You are now looking at people brought to life simply because they came out of the great tribulation, taken our of earth’s general population and not because they were witnesses to Jesus. They need shelter while Christians already have one of the many abodes promised (John 14). They will be shepherded as they still need shepherding and guidance. These are things our Lord’s disciples already achieved. You are seeing the salvation of this great crowd after the fact, after they are brought into the kingdom and realize what happened to them. You now see them adjusting to their new found circumstances. They now wash (grammatically wrong btw: "wash" and "whiten" = aorist = past time, vs. "coming from the great tribulation" = present) their robes in the blood of the Lamb for the first time in their lives while our Lords disciples did that long before they died. They now try to make peace with our Lord bearing palm branches and worship him day and night within his temple (which will be here on earth by the way). You are now seeing the Sheep (Matthew 25) like the thief that died next to our Lord (Luke 23) that were separated from the goats at this time of judgment.
See the amount of "reasoning from (unrelated) Scriptures" your interpretation requires. And I
take scriptures that do not apply to this argument mix them in with one that does...
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heathen
Leolaia--- That is some far out stuff you come up with , is that your own personal take on things or is that part of some group think ? Now you are saying the seven heads are not seven hills but seven kings? I don't think you can have it both ways there . I thought the WTBTS came up with some doozies . Good God OK OK , so in your opinion what is the lamb beast that keeps projecting the image of the scarlet beast and forces all people to worship the image and take a mark on the their hand or forhead ?
I think you are saying that whoever wrote revelation was just interpreting some pagan beliefs instead of divine visions ? Makes no sense to me ....
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JosephMalik
They are linked by a number of words and expressions (the most material facts you can get from a text)
Narkissos,
They are separated by words and expressions as well. These are also material facts you can get from the texts. In any event you have not demonstrated that they are Christians. It is unreasonable to think that only Christians inhabit a kingdom when He himself said: 1Jo 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. So where are they? They are this great crowd as I pointed out.
Joseph
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heathen
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. So where are they? They are this great crowd as I pointed out.
Yah but it's only those that exercise faith in him that can be saved . The great crowd IMO are the people that are in the field working or at the mill where one is taken and one is left behind at the time of christs return . Personally I still believe the 144K to be the martyred christians that are dead and resurrected at the the time of the end , they are given a co ruler seat in the kingdom . They are the first resurrection and fruits of the kingdom . The rest of the dead are not resurrected until the thousand year reign has ended . Rev. 20:5