This number has to be symbolic because there were many times over 144 000 of genuine christians throughout the ages, that number was probably reached before the end of the first century as the gospel spread very fast, with martyred and non martyred christians.
Is the 144,000 persons mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 literal or symbolic
by trem 59 Replies latest watchtower bible
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heathen
The WTBTS simply says that the 2 tribes that are different is because no tribe is to be exclusively priestly or royal , they are all kings and priests . I think it also shows that it's not to be mistaken for the ancient Israel covenant and it thus goes on to explain that they are from all tribes and nations .Revelation 5:9-10 . I have to agree with them on this one with that and the fact it's a literal number . I disagree with leo , Revelation is clear that these ones die as martyrs and are resurrected as first fruits where as the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation and never die . Those of the first resurrection are not liable to the second death either . Revelation 20: 5,6 .
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FairMind
Some of the obvious ones are 3, 7, and 12. How many time have you seen these numbers in the bible?
I've seen it 3712 times. In all seriousness I do believe there is an earthly and a heavenly class that either acquire immortality or everlasting life. Is it really important if 144,000 is or is not a literal number? I certainly don't think that believing it is symbolic should be a DFing offense.
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Leolaia
I disagree with leo , Revelation is clear that these ones die as martyrs and are resurrected as first fruits where as the great crowd comes out of the great tribulation and never die
That's Witness doctrine, not Revelation. The latter is quite explicit about what happens to the Christians who undergo the great tribulation (as narrated in ch. 13-14); those who make a stand for Christ by refusing the mark of the Beast or refusing to worship his image are put to death: "Anyone who refused to worship the statue of the Beast was put to death" (13:15). And again: "It was allowed to make war against the saints and conquer them ... and all people of the world will worship it, that is, everybody whose name has not been written down into the book of life" (13:7-10). The text leaves NO ROOM for faithful survivors who stay faithful but survive the tribulation without dying. Those who remain faithful to Christ must die because "even in the face of death they would not cling to life" (12:11). Thus the "great crowd" are seen gathered together in heaven after the tribulation (7:9-10, 19:1-2); they go to heaven after being martyred, just as the souls of prior martyrs in heaven are earlier described in 6:9-11, who were waiting for their number to be completed. In fact, God promised them that he would not start avenging them "until the roll was complete and their fellow servants had been killed just as they had been" (6:11). And indeed, it was after Babylon the Great (Rome) through the Beast had become "drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (17:6), that God began to take his vengeance out on them. Note again that EVERYONE else survived the tribulation by accepting the mark of the Beast: "The Beast ... compelled everyone -- small and great, rich and poor, slave and citizen -- to be branded on the right hand or on the forehead and made it illegal for anyone to buy or sell anything unless he had been branded with the name of the Beast or with the number of its name" (13:16-17 ). Thus EVERYONE who did not have the name of the Father or Lamb already written on their foreheads was written with the name of the Beast. All these people, "all those who ... have had themselves branded on the hand or forehead, will be made to drink the wine of God's fury which is ready undiluted in the cup of his anger ... and the smoke of their torture will go up forever and ever" (14:9-10). And in 19:18, the birds shall gorge themselves on "the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great"; the similarity of language with 13:16-17 indicates that EVERYONE who had the mark of the Beast perish on the day of God's vengeance. And indeed, the vision of the "great crowd" assembled in heaven views them as they are celebrating "victory":
"Alleluia! Victory and glory and power to our God! He judges fairly he punishes justly, and he has condemned the famous prostitute who corrupted the earth with her fornication; he has avenged his servants that she killed" (Revelation 19:1-2).
This is a celebration of God's victory avenging the martyrs. Since 6:9-11 explicitly states that God would not START avenging their deaths until the roll of the martyrs is complete, this again shows that the vision is of the great crowd assembled in heaven after all the martyrs have been killed off.
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heathen
Leo I think your analysis lacks insight . We've been around on this issue before , there's no point in doing it again ...
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Cygnus
Lacks insight? She's one of the most insightful posters I've seen. I'm not sure that Revelation directly teaches, or supports a teaching, that anyone goes to heaven; I think the 144,000 definitely represent an earthly group of people. And we're talking about a book written some time between 65 AD and 110 AD so it had a particular audience in mind, and it ain't people living in the third millenium AD.. But who knows. I think we can all agree on who doesn't know.
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BluesBrother
Since the number is actually 144 thousands (plural)+, check it out in your Kingdom Linear)
I just have, and you are right in that the literal text on the left column does read in each case "Twelve thousands"
I also got out my faded copy of Vines "Expository Dictionary of N/T Words", which says
"Chilias. - one thousand, is always used in the plural, chiliades but translated in the singular everywhere except in the phrase "thousands of thousands" Rev .5.11
So I guess that the traditional understanding of a vision of 12 x 12 thousand members of each tribe would be correct , although I would not claim to be a scholar.
Auld Soul, I love your simple but effective reasoning . You may have a "G" for convincing Argument and progress to the next point on your record .
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heathen
Cygnus -- Are you saying you belive that all christians have to die as martyrs to be saved ? That is completely absurd . Also the fact leolaia thinks babylon is rome is not substantiated in any way . The whore of babylon in revelation is destroyed by the leopard beast . Rome destroyed itself .LOLI give Leolaia a Cplus . he he ..... I agree she does post some interesting stuff ....
edited to add -- The WTBTS does not teach that the 144K die as martyrs , they are convinced they are alive as the FDS up till the very end and are beamed up to new jerusalem , kinda like rapture style . I in no way support their view ....
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Leolaia
Cygnus -- Are you saying you belive that all christians have to die as martyrs to be saved ? That is completely absurd .
Its not absurd to the Bible scholars who have studied the text as it currently stands. Remember, Revelation has its own unique eschatology, and it pertains only to those Christians living at the time of the "great tribulation" before God's executes his judgment on the world. The focus on martyrdom is patent throughout the book, and again the scenario leaves no room for another group of faithful Christians who remain on earth and stay faithful to Christ and yet are not killed by the Beast and Babylon the Great. Or do the words "all people" and "everyone" not mean "all people" and "everyone"?
Also the fact leolaia thinks babylon is rome is not substantiated in any way .
Again, this is based on the text itself (cf. especially 17:18 but also clues found elsewhere in the vision) and extrabiblical evidence. I presented all the relevant evidence in a thread sometime last year. I would certainly say that the Watchtower claim that Babylon is "the worldwide empire of false religion" is unsubstantiated from the text, tho this is actually historically based in the original understanding that the harlot of Revelation is Rome (i.e. all false religion < Catholicism/the papacy < the Holy Roman Empire < Rome). Please explain how this is unsubstantiated when I presented extensive evidence of this.
The whore of babylon in revelation is destroyed by the leopard beast . Rome destroyed itself .LOL
No, no, I never said that. As scholars generally agree, the Beast is the emperor....representing the line of successive Caesars through the seven heads (v. 9-10), and the Beast who "once was and now is not" (i.e. who had died) will be the eighth and final king even though he had previously been one of the seven earlier kings (v. 11). The seven heads represent seven hills as well (i.e. the seven hills of Rome), on which the woman sits (v. 9). Babylon is the city itself (as 17:18 states, and obviously Rome was the city that was then "ruling over the kings of the earth"), and the woman is a parody of its patron goddess Roma who as worshipped in the very same cities in Asia Minor that Revelation was addressed to. Roma was usually pictured in art as sitting on the seven hills of Rome, just as the woman in ch. 17 was pictured as sitting on seven hills (v. 9). Roma also had a secret name that was a mystery known only to her priests (generally thought by scholars to be AMOR "love", ROMA spelled backwards). Finally, the concept of Nero coming back from the dead and destroying Rome (finishing the job he started with the Great Fire) was widespread at the time Revelation was being written, attested in Jewish writings (which also refer to Rome as "Babylon"), ancient Roman historians, and Christian writings of the early second century (such as the apocalyptic section in the Ascension of Isaiah which describes Nero as the form Beliar would take to deceive the world and persecute the faithful).
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Narkissos
One problem with the "beast" is that its symbolism varies -- probably from the different sources underlying the extant text of Revelation. One possible distribution of those sources being
(1) 17:8-9a,15-18:
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. "This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated."
And he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make her desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."(2) 17:9b-10,12-14
They are seven kings, of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are united in yielding their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.
From this perspective the identification of the future evil emperor (Nero redivivus) to the beast which destroys Rome would only emerge in the redactional blending of sources into the extant Revelation text.