I agree with you. Understanding the Trinity-doctrine (to the extent it can be understood) requires a lot of biblical knowledge and intelligence. Most christians, who belong to faiths that do believe in the Trinity, often don`t know the basis for it, neither do they understand it. Really understanding the Trinity is only for intelligent people with a lot of knowledge about the Bible, not only text itself, but the history around it. Trying to teach a JW these things, is futile.
Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity.
by Odrade 68 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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LittleToe
Having spoken at several hundred group meetings ranging from 4 - 700 attendees, I would state that I always recommend that people don't touch the Trinity doctrine with a ten foot pole, when arguing with the JWs.
In the first instance, most folks simply don't know enough about the doctrine, are content for God to be a "mysery" of the highest order, and don't understand the way a JWs mind reasons or the way they've been trained to change the subject to bamboozle and get onto ground that they are happy fighting on.
For the same reason I would say the same for most other doctrines.
If they really must talk about hell then they should stick to the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, coz surely Jesus wouldn't teach something false even to make a point, would he?
But I usually tell them to concentrate on Christ, especially in
- Hebrews chapters one and two and John 20:28, when touching his divinity; or
- 1st Corinthians chapter 1 (esp. verse 23) when talking about Paul's ministry being exclusively about Christ, not the Father; or
- the story of the thief on the adjacent "stake" who allegedly was going to be in Paradise with Jesus at some point which evidently infers that Jesus must be going to be on a paradise earth rather than in heaven with the 144,000
If they have a personal testimony of "coming to Christ", then telling that can sometimes have an affect on JWs, if only to have them run away thinking the individual is possessed by the devil.
Hope that helps some.
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heathen
I think the trinity doctrine is retarded so I would be inclined to bring up the control issue , the lack of freedom to express yourself , the constant belief that since works can't save you means you have to be at it all the time . The fact they expect people to pay for publications they are forced to place in order to stay in " good standing." The lack of financial help from a publishing corporation that demands all your spare time . The abuse of children during meetings . Definately the blood doctrine but I think they made that a conscience matter . The shunning that goes on for riddiculous amounts of time just to humiliate people , the policy of marking newbies that don't just accept everything they say ( making you bad association) . I think this list can on ....
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MegaDude
If they really must talk about hell then they should stick to the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus
That's what I do.
Ask a JW if the hell doctrine is a doctrine of demons or Satan. (I've read this in their literature and heard it in talks where it is described this way.)
They will reply in the affirmative.
Then ask why Jesus used it in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable.
Every JW looks dumbfounded and replies the same...
"I don't know."
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Odrade
hehe. All in agreement, say AYE.
Seriously, I know there are people out there who DO consider the Trinity an effective talking point with the Witnesses. I can almost understand it in the Christian who has never had any contact with the JWs, but I cannot explain it in the X-JW.
WHY? I know exactly why I feel it's not an effective argument. But isn't there anyone who can help me understand why you DO think it's a good "talking point?"
LT, I agree that more effective would be focusing on Christ. Although personally, I'm with GaryBuss... I can't use disbeliefs to prove anything. Arguing in favor of another thing I do not believe, to disprove the thing the JW believes... Yeah. If you think that sentence is confusing, try having the actual conversation.
So why, when a newly indoctrinated person tells you that the reason they "KNOW the JWs have the truth" is because they don't believe in the Trinity, would you continue to argue with them on that subject? In a perfectly logical world, sure, all you would have to do is prove their original assumption is incorrect. But if that is the convincing point, then at some level they already had that belief, and the JWs simply coincided with what they already "knew" to be true.
Another example: When my father was introduced to the JWs by my mother, he wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. He'd never been religious, but had always felt a spiritual need, I think. One day, he asked a co-worker why people hated the JWs. The co-worker told him it was because they didn't believe in hellfire. At that moment, my father decided the JWs might have truth, and he needed to check it out. Four months later he was baptized. ALL BECAUSE THE JW BELIEF COINCIDED WITH HIS OWN. Thus he could be convinced that they had "truth." So, had a person chosen to try and lead my father away from the JWs, what do you think his most UNASSAILABLE belief is? That's right. Hellfire, and its non-existence.
So, assuming that a person decides the JWs are right, BECAUSE they don't believe the Trinity, on what level could it ever be considered a good argument? It's exceedingly unlikely that argument will ever have the slightest result.
So... WHY USE IT? -
ithinkisee
I am at a point where I seriously doubt the bible's credibility for a lot of things, but .... I think if I were to believe the bible I would have to say that it supports the Trinity. The MP3s floating around the Internet by Dr Walter Martin detail it pretty clearly and show how the Society has slyly changed things in scripture to make believeing the trinity seem ludicrous. While I agree it does mean going back to the original Greek, that is not too far of a stretch even for a JW - their own Kingdom Interlinear quite clearly points out their sneaky tactics.
- Everywhere that people in scripture worshipped Christ. The Society changed it in the NWT.
- Anywhere that the bible calls Jesus the Creator, the Society changed it in the NWT.
- Anywhere the Holy Spirit is mentioned, the Society makes it lower case, and never points out in scripture where the Holy Spirit even spoke to people.
- The early church fathers - the ones who, EVEN in the Society's opinion, supposedly - had God's spirit - believed that Jesus was God.
- The Society blatantly misquotes these early church fathers in support of the WT stand against the Trinity.
- The Society blatantly misquotes almost every religious and secular source mentioned in the Trinity brochure, to support the WT view against the Trinity.
- They use other bibles in support of their anti-Trinitarian stand. Many of these bibles - on closer examination - are from other cults that also have anti-Trinitarian stances, and therefore a natural bias.
I have more too, but do not have all my stuff available to me at the moment.
I personally don't think it is that difficult of a challenge - if a JW is up for a discussion about it.
-ithinkisee
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Odrade
:::if a JW is up for a discussion about it.
But how many are? I've yet to meet one who truly is. They seem to shut down, even while they are still talking.
Personally, I don't believe in the Trinity. I don't believe in the inspiration of the bible, and I don't believe in the divinity of Christ. (Though I do believe that he existed, and may have been quite "enlightened.") I also think that, as a theological work, the New Testament does tend to support the Trinitarian Ideology, even if it's highly interpretive.
But even assuming all of this, and a firm grasp of the nuances of Greek, and 1st century culture and religious ideals, it's the very rare JW or study who can even comprehend, much less want to discuss, the Trinity at that level.
And we are all well aware of the psychological phenomenon that says the less a person knows about a subject, the more certain they are that they are correct. -
ithinkisee
Ask them to go through the Trinity brochure with you.
Find and photocopy the works they reference. (I have most of the scans for those if you want them). You know, the Catholic Encyclopedia, etc.
Get the early church father's works from the library (which the Trinity brochure talks about on page 7). Show the JW how the Early Church Father's believed the OPPOSITE of what the Trinity brochure tells them. (I have quotes available if you need them).
-ithinkisee
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LittleToe
LIke I say, I wouldn't argue the Trinity, but I always suggest they tackle the far simpler question concerning the Deity of Christ. When JWs try wriggling round to the Trinity doctrine (which is easier to argue as being as false, in their eyes), keep it on Christ. And on Christ, and on Christ...
The Trinity is a totally NAFF discussion point. The only reason I can think of why an exJW would argue it is because if they become a Christian it is often a revelation for them, and they perhaps expect it to be as eye-opening for others as it was for them.
I've never held that delusion, though it was on exactly this point that I decided to leave the JWs. I didn't see how I could believe the bible talked about the Deity of Christ, and remain a JW. I arrived at the Trinity doctrine (merely through bible reading) shortly thereafter.
Here's a thought for ya, for your own discussions, Odrade. Research the Deity of Christ. Even with you not believing it, it isn't a problem, but I'm sure you would be able to argue that you believe the bible infers his deity?
Your personal lack of faith in biblical inerrancy or God doesn't impinge on that. Didier (Narkissos) is a good example of someone who does this.
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ithinkisee
I agree with LT. Focus on the deity of Christ. The fact alone that the Society has invested SO MUCH in discrediting Jesus (and there is even a paper trail) is pretty alarming.
This was a great example of Cognitive Dissonance happening with me - which is why I stick by it. (Two examples actually)
- A few years back, there was a bible study my wife and I conducted with a young, but very Christian family. The husband - very nice and sincere - said that with all honesty that he could (and had) read the entire New Testament (multiple times) and felt that the Trinity was very clearly taught in scripture. I was annoyed with him because I took the WT line that "anyone who reads the bible with an open mind could not POSSIBLY come to the conclusion that Jesus was God."
- Going out in service and meeting a pastor at the door. He calmly set us down and did some "seed-planting", methodically showing me and my wife how the New World Translation twisted texts to fit their doctrine by blatantly adding to scripture (or leaving stuff out). Rendering the same word differently in different places. His final words to me were - "If you don't listen to ANYTHING I tell you, listen to this - PLEASE go back and study the original Greek."
It works on JWs ... trust me ... it worked with me.
-ithinkisee