Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity. (page 3)

Odrade

:::Deity of Christ
LT, you are one of the two I was thinking of that were persuaded by the Trinity. And I do agree that the NT, (and even the Old,) seems to infer Christ's deity. The fact that I don't personally believe in a deified Christ does not invalidate the observation that the Scriptures seem to be steeped in it...
I also believe there are valid and convincing arguments for a Christian to accept the Trinity. But, will those arguments work with a JW? Nearly always, I would say... NO. So finding the "best" argument, pro-Trinity, becomes only a useful exercise in research, since it likely will never see the light of day with a JW.
So, IMO, it is futile to fine-tune an argument that will probably never even be made. Three years ago I would have thought a person, (especially an ex-JW) utterly insane if they had tried to show me that a case could be made for Biblical support of the Trinity. Every word out of their mouth, from that point on, would have been suspect.
Although I suppose, as with most things, "what works" is extremely subjective.
LT and ITIS, if you happened to have an opportunity to have honest conversation with a JW or a "study," would you actually use this subject as your topic for discussion? (LT, I know you already answered this in the negative, which is my point.) There are people who would and DO use the Trinity as their primary talking point, though.
Maybe the feeling is that the JW is not going to listen anyways, so you might as well speak "truth" as you see it? In which case, that's probably a good enough reason...

Odrade

:::It works on JWs ... trust me ... it worked with me.

Sorry ITIS, I was typing the same time you were, and missed this. I find this very interesting. Was this the first doctrine you began to question? or were other things suspect first? I seem to remember that chronology was very compelling to you...

LittleToe

If the aim is seed-sowing, then the Deity of Christ is sufficiently removed from hardcore JW doctrine that you needn't walk the extra mile until they are ready for it. I don't know if I'd even tackle the personification of the Holy Spirit at this point. Information overload just swamps the mind and shuts it down.

If they've accepted the Deity of Christ and are walking away from the JWs, then there might be a place for it, but it's an arduous road of research. Most haven't got the energy for it, especially with the recent religious bereavement.

amen

A few years ago, a cousin of mine came to visit me from NY a catholic. We were arguing about the trinity. I had the reasoning book with me well we were exchanging ideas and bible verses back and forth. i thought i had the last argument and winning it until he punched me with a verse in colossian i think it was. I did not want to admit it but i know deep inside me, he got me i could not refute what the bible said.

Last summer i when to a barbecue where most of my friend were became weak JW's who don't go to the meeting anymore but still believe in the JW's ideology. I told them i was not going to the meeting anymore and it has been more than 2 years and i did not believe anymore of what they society teaches. In the course of discussion one of them asked me i believe in the trinity. I got corned, if i told him, no, he would say that babylon believes therefore the JW's are right on that one. I had to say yes eventhough i knew if was a wasted of time talking about the trinity.

Before i said yes, i said that the bible is in such a way that if you want to believe in trinity the bible will support that if you don't want to believe in it the bible will support also that. Thanks God, his brother back me up on that.

The truth is for me the bible support the trinity although it does not matter you believe or not. God will not destroy anyone for not believe it.

My last talk at the kingdom hall was about the trinity i could not do it because i believe in the trinity, so i ask a friend at the kingdom hall to do me a favor to do it for me and he did.

Amen

coffee_black

Most people have no idea how to approach a jw or challenge their beliefs. Most Christians do know that jws do not believe in the trinity, so that is what they start with....they mean well, but that's not a good starting point.

Coffee

Inquisitor

I've noticed that everybody on this thread are eager to convince Witnesses that the Trinity doctrine is a Biblical teaching. I'm at the stage of my faith where i'm questioning what people (JW's or their staunch opposers) are saying to work out what is true, what is not. Cos i know even the dissenters don't always get their facts straight, some better at cussing than debating. And when that happens it really really annoys me. Not saying that's what been happening on this thread though.. am speaking in general.

Anyway, what I'm keen to know is whether you guys actually BELIEVE the trinity doctrine is biblical or are you waving its banner simply because it puts you in the opposing camp? I'm eager to read up on how the witnesses have twisted the scriptures to their own ends on this subject. So by all means enlighten me. I'm all ears.

INQ

Ianone

Odrade. the Divinity of Christ is the soul target of the JW cult. There is a large cabal behind not only the JW's but all Christ denying religions.

btw. I am a Modalist. Which differs from trinitarianism. I believe modalism makes Jesus more personal, since God is not three seperate persons, but is one person, revealed three different ways.

research, Monarchian Modalism (Sabellianism)

Subortinationism (JW adhere to this)

Trinitarianism (Pagan Catholic creed) - but at least it does not reject Christ's divinit, so I believe God accepts these people.

Arianism of Arius the heretic (also accepted and practiced by JWs)

Odrade

Ianone: I have no wish to argue the Trinity (or Modalist) doctrines. I wish to understand why those who use those arguments view it as a good talking point, WITH A JW.

Now, I haven't been around here much lately, and haven't read many of your posts, but if I were a JW, and you came to me trying to dissuade me from my faith, it's likely your arguments would make me laugh. Arianism of Arius the Heretic? Okay then. And if you call JWs a "christ-denying religion?" Well, that'll stop a JW from engaging in reasonable discussion right there. JWs do indeed believe in Jesus, and no amount of saying they deny him, (just because they don't agree with you,) will make the conversation go anywhere.

I'm not even a JW anymore, and your comment has me alternately feeling very angry and indignant, and scratching my head saying "What the...?"
This is exactly what I mean by effective arguments.

Odrade

I think first one has to define the Trinity. But there are certainly many here who believe in the deity of Christ, AND his union (sameness) with the Father. I'm not one of them. If I talk to someone about the Trinity at all, it's usually along the lines of showing how the WT has manipulated scripture and tradition so they can be "unique."
Establishing a sense of uniqueness and separatism is an effective way to indoctrinate, certainly.

Inquisitor

Does the "deity" of Christ imply he is a god (the divinity of christ) or he is God (Jesus IS Jehovah)?

I've no problems with the former but you'll need to talk me through the latter.

INQ

Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity.

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