Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity. (page 5)

Ianone

LT I didnt know Odrade was a JW. Had I known, I wouldnt have brought up doctrine.

LMAO! Ianone, Ianone. I'm not a JW, but I was for 30 years. Memorized my fair share of argumentation, and read more literature than the average brainwashed kid because I was a true believer. I was raised to be a stickler about "organizational procedure," and got excited about the finer points of doctrine.
So, if I occasionally sound like a JW, it's because that training has worn a permanent groove in my brain, and it's very easy for me to speak as they think.
I am no longer a JW, though. This thread has taken quite a turn from my original question, which had nothing to do with actual doctrine. I was curious to know WHY those who choose to approach JWs with the Trinity argument, believe it is more effective than choosing another argument.
Ironically, the lack of answer is an answer in itself. Apparently, almost no one who knows about JWs will choose this as a primary talking point. I still would like to hear from Jeff Schwem. I suppose I should email him and ask him directly. He probably has not seen this thread. And it's most likely that he chooses a different tactic, depending on the individual to whom he is speaking. Don't we all?

Honesty

Anyways, I would love to hear from people who have left the JWs, or who try to help them, WHY you choose to discuss the Trinity with a JW, and what you feel it may be an effective strategy.

I steer clear of discussing it. Anything that is based on faith turns a JW off because they have no faith in Jesus.

Discussing how Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit can be one is like trying to explain calcalus to a four year-old.

I just try to reach them with Jesus and His mesaage which the WTBTS agrees is not the message they preach and teach.

SpannerintheWorks

I've tried to emphasise this on numerous occasions but some have still not got it: The Bible is a LIABILITY!!!. Do not live your life according to what it tries to teach: The Bible is NOT a book that deserves any recognition whatsoever.

Deputy Dog

Odrade

The thing that works best for me, is to ask them what they mean by the "Trinity". When they finish explaining the WT straw man, I explain that, that is not what I believe and let them try to establish if I'm Trinitarian. That way, I can agree with the early church fathers and quote them properly, which will then show that the "Trinity" booklet is a lie. This allows me to agree with the people THEY quote. D Dog

inquirer

@dannyhaszard.

Jehovah's Witnesses-Trinity Quandary & Quantum Theory]

I've looked at your website before and have actually thought about this myself. But if people understood their Bibles and all these concepts, the council of Nicaea would be unnecessary and we'd never need to contemplate the idea of Quantum Physics regardless if God is "3 in 1" or "1 in 1."

I like to break down things simply -- like with a little child putting a square-shaped object, in a triangle hole -- it won't fit, because it's not suppose to be there. Simbolically, with pre-school shape boards, we could symbolically think of the different shapes representing different entities in heaven. Maybe the square presents Jesus Christ, the circle Jehovah God, and all the other shapes represent angels with different status like with the Archangel Gabriel. Now, there's only one shape that represents one entity. You can't put the square shape in the circle shape because they are of different rank and when you try to change "the roles" of who's who, it simply won't fit.

Trinitarism comes a long and cheats and starts using philosophy to change all the shapes. And because it's possible for God to do anything, it's possible for all the shapes to change size and width to adjust to this trinity concept.

I like the idea that the JW's say regarding Quantum Physics -- the Bible is not a science text book, it's only interested with human affairs.

Find me a Scripture that relates God to Quantum Physics. I'd be really interested in that! ...But really, can't you see this disproves your argument? Because now you are seeking the answer of science to answer your questions about the Bible! Many times science and religion are at odds with each other. But, although anything with God is possible, God doesn't apply this concept to himself about quantum physics, infact, his angels are his messages. He just sends out his "troops" do accomplish his work. This cancels out the idea of Quantum Physics, right? An "angel of the Lord" appeared to Mary and Joseph, right? Not God sitting on his throne and coming down too.

I guess I have mixed feelings for what you say in the argument...

@Hellrider. Originally, YHWH wasn`t even the first god, or the "creator of everything", and hence, not even creator of the other gods, or himself. Eventually, YHWH would take the place as the "one and only" god, but him having a name, would eventually become an embarassment, because it was a remnant from the time he was only one god among many others.

Are you kidding me! Doesn't sound like you a Christian to me! Who created Adam and Even then? Satan? Michael? I find it incredible that you don't see a dilemma in what he is saying about the Jewish monotheism and Christianities "3 in 1" God. Why would God say to the Jews "God is 1 in 1" and to the Christians "3 in 1" God?

You made the statement in your post about having "JWisms." What's wrong with that?! If they teach a correct statement, there is no need to change my theology just because I originally learnt it from JW's! This is one of the more absurd things from former JW's! Please be sensible about such things, it makes our arguments against their doctrines invalid! I say this statement to everyone on the board!!!

--General statement-- I don't know why it took them 225 or so years at the Council of Nicaea to solve this problem if a trinity. They should have solved this problem long before. And it's even more stupid by the fact that Christianity was hijacked by authoritarian Christianity, where people lost their Christendom freedom and having to adjust to this new view of God. And I can gurantee all of you on this board, once something is instituted, the idea never goes away. It gets carried through all the eras and now up in the 21st century we are still talking about it. This is something that Barnabas Ministries book "Debunking the Myths of Sacred Namers" goes on about when mentions a popular myth of who and when God's name was translated into English. And still, the myth never dies to this day. Like the trinity. People didn't have a problem with what they believed before that day, but this authoritarian Christianity demands us to believe in this concept? What ever happened to Arius and his followers? Aren't we allowed to form ideas like what he did? I mean, 90% of Christianity believe in the trinity. Christian climate doesn't accept our point of view of the nature of God. Having 95% of Bibles translate John 1:1 as "God" instead of "a god" doesn't make it right. It merely expresses common belief of the trinity as I just mentioned!

Odrade

Not to belabour the point, but Deputy, is the Trinity the main argument that you choose to discuss with the JWs? Or only if they bring it up?

To rephrase the question, I am not interested in the most effective way to argue the Trinity, I am wondering if there is anyone out there who thinks it is the most effective thing to discuss? I'm not sure how to clarify the question further.

Deputy Dog

Odrade

I agree with you it's probably not the best place to start, but they always bring it up. I think it is a way for them to see if the person is open to their teaching, and gives them an excuse to cut and run. That's why I like to keep them guessing. I tell them that I have no fondness for the titles "Trinity" or "Trinitarian"

D Dog

Hellrider

Inquirer:

I find it incredible that you don't see a dilemma in what he is saying about the Jewish monotheism and Christianities "3 in 1" God. Why would God say to the Jews "God is 1 in 1" and to the Christians "3 in 1" God?

Of course I see a dilemma. I see dilemmas all over the place, both within the NT, within the OT and within the Bible as a whole. There are many things and many doctrines that doesn`t make any sense. It doesn`t make any sense that Yhwh a god among other gods in the Torah, but the only God and the creator of everything, in the rest of the Tanakh. It doesn`t make any sense that Jesus teaches ressurection (and probably soul survival) in the Gospels, and the apostles teach soul survival and ressurection in Acts and Paul in his letters, while these basic christian doctrines are no part of the OT (possibly with the exception of 2 Kings 4 and 13). Sure I see dilemmas. But try to ask yourself this question (and I know this is a weird example, but it`s the one that comes to mind right now): Let`s say that your arm is cut off, and laying on the floor. Is that arm you, or is it your arm? It`s your arm, and not you. Now, let`s say that human beings were created differently, that we had head and no brain, and that what we now call our "brain" is running thru our blood, just like our blood cells. If your arm is then cut off, and laying on the floor, is that arm then you, or not?

What is wrong with having "JWisms?" If they teach a correct statement, there is no need to change my theology just because I originally learnt it from JW's!

There is nothing wrong with that. I just happen to think that almost all of their doctrines are wrong. Well, they are onto something about the ressurection, which (in my view) the christian church has downplayed a bit. The ressurection is a very important part of the gospels, and I personally don`t see this as just a ressurection of the soul (at death), which is the impression I`ve gotten that the rest of christianity does. But other than that, they`re all wrong, in my view.

Deputy Dog

Odrade

I am wondering if there is anyone out there who thinks it is the most effective thing to discuss?

In most cases it is not the best thing to discuss. If they can label you a "Trinitarian" they will drop you like a hot potato, most of the time

D Dog.

Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity.

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