Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity. (page 4)

Ianone

Odrade. I agree with you. I don't talk about this with JWs. I like Randy's approach at freeminds.org....address the underlining issue which brought them to accept such a totalitarian cult in the first place. MISPLACED SECURITY.

Ianone

Believeing Jesus is God is not something that can or should be formulated out to reach a conclusion. Realizing that Jesus is or is not God, involves what the person is already inclined to believe....Their natural philosophy of how they think things are.

Ianone

Although I have seen in rare cases, a person come to believe Jesus is God through what appeared to be a formulated understanding...although I don't know how strong a foundation this sets for a person. Like I said, I myself am a Modalist, former trinitarian. In both cases I have always believed Jesus is my Personal friend and God who created me. Doctrines and formulas did not decide this for me...my heart was instictively inclined to desire and believe this. It is what I want.

Carmel

It's a false dichotomy and Gary Buss hit it on the head. Besides, any two people that argue over religion are both wrong!

So sayeth the soothsayer!

carm

inquirer

The Trinity... "the fountain, the trinity, the pilgrims are searching for blood (background vocals: SEARCHING FOR YOUR BLOOD -- from the Album "Chemical Wedding")..." :)

Sorry, I can't stop singing. But I always wonder why the Jews never contemplate anything remotely of a trinity and then this weird Christianity comes a long, and can't understand potentially very simple Scriptures like John 1:1 and invent this strange thing called the trinity because they couldn't understand that Scripture. It contradicts everything in the Old Testament, it has to be wrong. And now people are saying that "Michael" is not Jesus, and this gives even less proof of a trinity. I think to bash the J dubs because they put "a" in front of God in John 1:1 is ridiculous! If you are going to bash an organization like that build up a much larger case of evidence than that! But arguments rarely go beyond this point and that is their reason for rejecting the J dub's New World Translation.

It's ok for the majority of Christianity to celebrate Christmas and Easter (which is impossible to trace in the Bible) but if you add just one letter that disproves a word that isn't in the Bible, you are cast aside as unorthodox, unchristian and so forth. I had my reasons for not joining anymore chuches after the J dubs, but this is another good reason not to join them! They are so bitter and twisted!

Even heard Hellrider here, say "throw out the NWT!" I wouldn't even throw out the NIV and yet I hate that so much! Why not through out the Inspired Version by the Mormons? They changed so many versions in that translation it's unbelievable, but I never even heard that translation even mentioned on the board.

I think the JW's have serious doctrinal problems, but seriously, everybody should examine their own religions first before picking out a "log in someone else's eye."

Some Christian religions go off to war and that's something I could never contemplate myself. But if the JW's did it, it would be given the same treatment as Muslims are today.

I am sorry for going off topic, but I sincerely don't know why people don't argue logically with their arguments against JW's. That is one thing I disagree with a lot of "apostates" like myself.

One more thing, I read about the Good News Bible (on bible-researcher.com) is called "the bloodless Bible" because any references that says "blood of Christ" he replaces with "sacrificial death of Christ." I wonder how much trouble the Watchtower would be in if they did that to their Bible? There would be blood on the streets I think!

Hellrider

Inquirer:

But I always wonder why the Jews never contemplate anything remotely of a trinity and then this weird Christianity comes a long,

The jews would never have contemplated a Trinity, because at that time, in the development of Judaism, it was (and still is) strictly monotheistic. It wasn`t always like that. The ten commandments say "thou shalt not worship other gods than me", not that other gods didn`t exist (at that time in Judaism). The jews of Moses time believed other gods existed, but that their God was YHWH. Originally, YHWH wasn`t even the first god, or the "creator of everything", and hence, not even creator of the other gods, or himself. Eventually, YHWH would take the place as the "one and only" god, but him having a name, would eventually become an embarassment, because it was a remnant from the time he was only one god among many others.

and can't understand potentially very simple Scriptures like John 1:1 and invent this strange thing called the trinity because they couldn't understand that Scripture

It`s not that simple. The word was with God in the beginning. There is nothing in that passage that indicates that "the Word" was created. Neither does Jesus ever say that he was "created" by God. The gospel of John has many, many passages that would support a Trinitarian view:

John 14:7 If you have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know him and have seen him.” 14:8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be content.” 14:9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long, and you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father residing in me performs his miraculous deeds. 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in me

It contradicts everything in the Old Testament, it has to be wrong.

Neither ressurection nor soul survival is in the OT either. However, you couldn`t possibly read the NT without accepting that some sort of ressurection and or (both,in my view) soul survival is to take place. The religion in this area and time was in constant development, especially at the time Jesus lived, and the predecing two centuries. Paul even exploits this fact, to "divide and conquer", when he is taken prisoner by the jews in Jerusalem, in Acts. There are many things in the NT that contradicts the OT. This is irrelevant.

I think to bash the J dubs because they put "a" in front of God in John 1:1 is ridiculous

It`s not, if that "a" isn`t there in the greek text. It`s not ridicolous if it is only placed there to change the meaning of the text to fit JW-doctrine.

Even heard Hellrider here, say "throw out the NWT!" I wouldn't even throw out the NIV and yet I hate that so much! Why not through out the Inspired Version by the Mormons? They changed so many versions in that translation it's unbelievable, but I never even heard that translation even mentioned on the board.

Throw them all out! I wouldn`t touch the mormon-version with a ten foot pole, I`m sure it`s as biased as the NWT, although I have never read it. But this is JW-board. We discuss JW-issues here, not mor(m)on-issues. Personally I think the mormon-religion is just as stupid as the JW-religion, but I have no "personal" problem with the mormones, because I was raised a JW, not a mormon. Someone who was raised in the mormon-religion can attack this religion, I`ll focus on the religion I have a personal problem with. Throw out the NIV too, and try to find a version that is as un-biased as possible, and true to the original text (and yes, yes, I know all versions are biased...but there are still ways to evaluate them).

Some Christian religions go off to war and that's something I could never contemplate myself.

Based on your interpretation of the Bible. Which I suspect still has some JW-ism in it. Whether or not a christian can join the army, go to war etc, is not a clear no-no, in my opinion.

LittleToe

Ianone:I believe you confessed in a thread that you've never been a JW. It shows. You simply don't know how JWs and exJWs think, as evidenced by Odrade's response to you.

Inquisitor:
Take it back a step for a moment.

Regardless of whether the whole of Christendom is right about their translation of John 1:1 (the Word was God) or a small sect called the JWs are right (the Word was a god), surely the NWT is ascribing some level of deity to Jesus?

Alas they do not. In their teachings they allow only one God, Jehovah, as per Isaiah. This flies in the face of all logic. Either he's a god or he isn't, and the WTS would actually say he isn't a deity at all. If Jehovah is the only true God, and all other gods are clearly false, and if Jesus is proclaimed a god by John 1:1, then surely he must be a false god (by their definition)?

The only real options regarding the text are:

Jesus is a god and the son of a bigger God (polytheism - like the Mormons)
Jesus is God, and only pretends to be the son of God as a "mode" of God (Modalism - like Ianone and Oneness Pentecostals)
Jesus is an inseparable "part" of God as an individual person (Trinitarianism - like most of Christendom)

I confess I've grossly over-simplified it, but it surely shows that the JWs are missing something that all the other perspectives have, that being that Jesus is Divine, having all the attributes of God, including creatorship.

This is without getting into the issue over whether the Tetragrammation (commonly translated LORD, Yahweh, or Jehovah in the Old Testament) refers to Jesus, the Father, or simply "God" as a godhead or individual.

Inquisitor

Hi Little Toe

Was beginning to wonder if anyone actually noticed my post at all! lol

It would be an oversight to think that any lesser gods have to be false. Jesus is a God of some sort. That is scripturally-proven i think. Isaiah 9:6 referred to him in prophecy as ´El Gib·bohr´ Mighty God which distinguishes him from the other title,´El Shad·dai´ Almighty God.

Having said that however, you now have me stumped! Does that mean then, by definition, that the Witnesses have a polytheistic version of Christianity? For there is an "Almighty God", a "Mighty God" and "gods" and the "god of this sytem of things"... beginning to look like a pantheon doesn't it? I seriously doubt the Witnesses would readily embrace such a categorization of their religion. Polytheism.

Hmmmm...

Need to mull over this.

INQ

Mary

I wouldn't bother trying to argue with a JW about the Trinity......it's one of the few doctrines I actually think the Dubs still have right. You'd be far better off trying to break them down by other means: 607 BCE/586 BCE, flip flopping on doctrines, 1914, 1925, 1975, This Generation, etc. etc.

I mean, take your pick. With so many of their doctrines having been built on sand, there's no point in trying to break down one of the few things they may have actually got right.

DannyHaszard

Jehovah's Witnesses-Trinity Quandary & Quantum Theory Our Broadband 'Trinity' Universe Is Heaven Broadband or Dial up? We don't know Heaven-Jesus could be God because he is omnipresent? The Deity of Christ, created being Son of God, or God himself OR both? Jehovah's Witnesses say John 1:1 can't be reconciled and yes the Trinity is of pagan origin and precedes the Bible writings and is rooted in the pagan mysticism and a flip at the creed of Nicaea. Jesus apparently prayed and petitioned outside of himself in the 17th chapter of John. Impossible for Theologians to reconcile? What if the issue is really one of physics and the holy grail pursuit of the Unification equation, the grand unified theory of physics? The Grand unification of (BIG) astrophysics and (small) particle physics. Could quantum mechanics solve the can't be in two places at the same time quandary? Going beyond the things that are written? That's what Einstein did with 300 year old Newtonian physics. Isaac Newton predicted gravity perfectly, but he couldn't explain HOW gravity did it. It seemed at the time that 'something' like an invisible arm just reached out and grabbed the earth and held it in orbit around the sun. Einstein elaborated the how, that this something was a dent made in the fabric of time and space a fourth dimension to complement the existing three of Newton. The Earth and other celestial bodies rolled along in this dent and went their merry way

There's more that we don't know about the Universe then we can comprehend. Things like how 60% of the matter in the universe is called dark matter because no one knows what it is. Putting the square peg in the round hole, quantum mechanic stuff. We know that forces in the gigantic scale of astrophysics, things like a gravity intense star or theoretical black hole cannot fit in the same model for particle physics in the domain of the smallest subatomic particle . That's my K.I.S.S quickie explanation for the grand unified theory {g.u.t}. If you want to Google the PhD version don't get lost.

Yet, both models MUST fit together because the universe just hums along fine. So, the pursuit of the Unified theory the grand equation of everything, if ever achieved will make creation fit into one neat model. Some of these models allow for multiple dimensions beyond the four that we can perceive. Where is the Heavenly realm? When the prophet Daniel prayed the Angel appeared immediately, from where? Did the Angel commute from a distant celestial body faster the 'finite' speed of light, or did he step out from another realm or dimension? Back to the Trinity debate and the impossibility of the Son of God also being God, or of existing in more than one plane or dimension of time and space. We don't know Heaven! The trinity dogma has ancient pagan elements, but don't forget the demons are out to twist, taint and deceive every Christian concept that they can. In the devils confabulation with Eve in the garden of Eden he spoke 54 words only 5 were lies, "you positively will not die". The Bible say's Christ has a second coming, but we know he did not come 'invisibly' in 1914 like the Watchtower claims. Satan could have done his twisted spin on the Deity of Jesus Christ also. ------------------ Oh, can't have a science read without a mention of UFOs and space aliens. Science fiction flicks have us conditioned to ETs who are more advanced than us by a couple of hundred years or so. Think about this....What if they were advanced, not by a few centuries but by a million years? Well, if Heaven exist their 'civilization' would be BILLIONS of years more advanced, and superhuman to begin with. They could have a multi-dimensional database, and could have unlimited (omnipotent) abilities. Raising the dead would be a walk in the park for them. The only database that we have on them is 2,000 years old delivered to a simple pastoral people. The Bible wasn't written for the Harvard alumni. -------------------- A B C A.The central core JW doctrine is Jesus second coming in 1914, is a LIE! B.Every devout JW will grow old and die just like me. C.Apostate opposer's like myself will not die at Armageddon Jehovah's Witnesses apologist use the trinity 'quandary' to divert and distract from the core issues --------- Danny Haszard Bangor Maine Footnote:I experience with many JW hardcore psychopaths (my own father and my maternal grandmother) is they manipulate by lying 80% of the time and tell the truth with incredible astounding candor the other 20%,so you think there must be something wrong with my head they told the truth this time,so they MUST be telling the truth the other times too.

Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity.

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