Hellrider,
I didn't mean to shout before, I just wanted that text to be noticed by you and everyone else, I didn't think of it at the time, but now I've changed the font size, so it doesn't matter.
No intention was made to make your ID be spelt with a lower case "h" before either.
Strategy: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity.
by Odrade 68 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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inquirer
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inquirer
@Hellrider,
But try to ask yourself this question (and I know this is a weird example, but it`s the one that comes to mind right now): Let`s say that your arm is cut off, and laying on the floor. Is that arm you, or is it your arm? It`s your arm, and not you. Now, let`s say that human beings were created differently, that we had head and no brain, and that what we now call our "brain" is running thru our blood, just like our blood cells. If your arm is then cut off, and laying on the floor, is that arm then you, or not?
inquirer -- It's no longer apart of me physically unless someone stitches it back on for me! And then I'd look like a pirate -- judging from where you come from, I am sure you would understand such things! :D lol !! Arrr matey! :)
It's not a weird example, because I have a bit of pirate in me as well -- I am part Norwegian! ;)
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inquirer
You want to do practice sword fighting?
I'll choose the cutlass? What will you choose? :D -
Odrade
If you guys are going to fight about whatever it is you're fighting over, can you do it in a new thread? Geez. (By you guys, I mean hellrider and inquirer.)
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inquirer
Odrade,
Oh come on!!! Don't be so ridiculous! Don't you get it? We are both pirates because I have a bit of Norweigan in me too! We are both practicing sword fighting.... If you read my post, it says practice sword fighting. It was all complementary towards him!
You obviously don't have a sense of humor!!! ...Next time read the posts a little better before drawing any conclusions!
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Hellrider
Inquirer:
No worries there, about the font size. Swordfighting...I`d prefer boxing. Nice pick of mr.Dickinson by the way, I`m a Maiden-fan too.
Are you kidding me! Doesn't sound like you a Christian to me! Who created Adam and Even then? Satan? Michael? I find it incredible that you don't see a dilemma in what he is saying about the Jewish monotheism and Christianities
Well, who said I was a christian? Actually, maybe I am, I don`t know. I have some very complicated views on the Bible. On the one hand, I appreciate all the "secular" knowledge I can find about the Bible (hence, the stuff I wrote, which you obviously disagree with to a large extent), on the other hand I appreciate the texts, and whatever glimpse I can get into heaven (whatever that is, and if it exists), thru them. I also appreciate lessons that can be learned from the Bible, some of the moral, but more than anything, I find the Bible to be very poetic, now that I`m reading it in my adult years. As opposed to being forcefed it at the KH, along with harsh, strong, obviously morally wrong extra parts (or parts that were the logical consequenses of what I now see was plainly wrong doctrines) on the side. I never suggested that you mention the things I mentioned to a JW, when discussing with him/her. He/she would just laugh at you, or look at you like you were some kind of madman...(can i play with madneeeeeesss....) As for the issues I mentioned: All these things have been discussed on this board before, and I have learnt a lot since I joined this board. Now, from a secular point of view, that is, looking at the Bible, the beliefs of the people at the time the different books (both OT and NT) were written, I stand by all the statements I made in that post. You brought up Satan in your post (or Beelse`bul, Lucifer, the devil, Hey`lal ben Shahar, the lord of the flies, whatever you want to call him) didn`t even exist in jewish thought at the time of Moses. At this time in jewish history, all things that happened, whether good or bad, came from Yhwh (now remember, all things I am saying now, is based on secular knowledge about the Bible: It has to do with understanding the Bible from a secular viewpoint, not from a christian. Do NOT say these things to a JW), as in:
Isaiah 45:7 I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity.
...bible researchers see this as a time when God and Satan were esentially the same in jewish thought. Only later did this evil side of Gods nature separate into another being, known as Satan, as in Zecheriah 3, and in Job. The Satan-character appears in jewish thought only after judaism has entered into the monotheistic state, where Yhwh is seen as the one and only god. Before this phase, there were many gods in jewish thought, Yhwh was just one among many, but he was seen as the god of Israel. This polytheistic stage in judaism is even reflected in the ten commandments: Many believe that "You shall have no other gods besides Me... is just about not making up "false idols". But ask yourself: If all the jews believed in, and agreed, that there was only one God, Yhwh, why would they "come up with others", and worship other "gods" that they knew didn`t exist? Nope. Only when they entered the Hellenic period did the Jews rid themselves of the belief that Yhwh was one god among many.
Wikipedia is usually never accurate, but on Judaism, it`s pretty good, scroll down to the part that says "Critical historical view on the development of Judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism#Critical_historical_view_of_the_development_of_Judaism
(sorry I couldn`t find a better source at the moment)
There is a development in the bible,it can be seen when you free yourself from all doctrinal bias, and read the Bible like a historian. The things I mentioned here, aren`t really new things, you can read bout this many places. Read this thread, there are some links to resourses, websites and books, stuff like that:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/100442/1.ashx
The Bible is full of things like this. Sometimes, older books were probably edited to fit with newer, sometimes they were not, and sometimes there are "traces" of older beliefs. No wonder that the Bible is a hard read.
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Odrade
Screw it. I give up. Totally and hopelessly hijacked. Anyone have an answer for me about why you think this is a good discussion to have with a JW or a study, please pm me so I will be sure and see it. I won't be able to find it in all this bullshit. Of course, anyone who might care to comment on the subject might not be able to find this post in all the bullshit either.
Hellrider, and especially Inquirer, there are some basic rules of netiquette that people generally try to follow. Inquirer, screw you. You don't know me. When I am serious I am serious. My question here was serious, and you hijack to talk about pirates, then have the audacity to tell me I have no sense of humor when I request that you take your hijack elsewhere? -
Ianone
Let me try to answer that question. I for one do not bring up any doctrine when talking to a JW. Like I said before, I prefer the freeminds.org approach of addressing the misplaced security, something that Little Toe completely ignored when he responded to me. Trinitarians most likely pick the trinity for discussion with a J Dub because they feel it is the most important issue. Truth is, as you most likely know, most "Christians" can not argue with a JW. JW's can defeat the average Christian even on a bad day. This , however, is not an indication of the JW possesing the truth or being more correct, they are simply more trained. But I believe it is a mistake to bring up doctrine, at least at first. THe JWs dont stay JWs because of the doctrines the ORg has to offer, they stay JWs because of the security that the WT, and surrounding environment (i.e. friends etc.) provide to the witeness.
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inquirer
Odrade please read my post. (Quotes of yours are in italics bold.)
I can't understand why you are so upset. The title says "Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity." I think the discussion I am having with Hellrider, is just typical of what takes place when this subject is ever brought up. I am offended, because I am giving my imput here. And initially I was annoyed that people at large criticize the JW's because of John 1:1 and I explained as you said "I feel that arguing the Trinity with a JW, 99x out of 100 will do more harm than good, ESPECIALLY when coming from an X-JW, as it gives them "proof" that, once a person "leaves Jehovah," they become susceptible to all manner of demonic thought. (In the JW's eyes.)" Your first post is trying to say how to discuss the trinity without offending JW's? And you said that you only know 2 people who left the JW's because of this trinititarian belief. And I can't help the answer that I gave. There is no easy answer. You know yourself how stubborn they are.
Sometimes people won't give you a direct answer to what you are talking about, because they may feel it's an erroneous question and we all just answer it the best way we can. By getting to the root cause of the problem, will explain why a trinity discussion is useless with the JW's. I know the guy you are talking about Jeff Schwem. I don't know him personally but have seen his website.
You said "Anyways, I would love to hear from people who have left the JWs, or who try to help them, WHY you choose to discuss the Trinity with a JW, and what you feel it may be an effective strategy. (Especially Jeff Schwem. I do not agree with his doctrine, but I do respect his tone. FTR.)"So does that mean you believe in the unity (God is one) like me? I would assume that's what you mean, so why get all "worked up" on me?
I am just greatful there is a message board where we discuss our feelings towards JW's, their doctrines, why they believe them, what we believe now, our loved ones who are still caught up in the movement. I mean am greatful for having a open discussion on things.
At times we go into threads, and someone might say, "I've got proof that Charles Taze Russel was a Mason." And you go in there, and that particular person says they are only joking. Now, don't you think that threads like that are disappointing? Then you see the funny side of it and think it's no big deal, and it probably doesn't matter if he was a Mason or not, because the guy was such a pyramid crackpot anyway -- he's tombstone is in the shape of a pyriamid, that just proves how strange he was!
I've never seen you come on my threads, but do I complain? No! You probably never liked me and don't have any respect for what I say! I've been here since the start of the year and you've ignored me all this time, but you are free to whoever you talk to. I've had threads which only 6-7 people reply, I see others where no one replies at all. So what! These things happen! There are 1000's of people registered with a whole ton of beliefs. And you can't expect everyone to give what you want on a thread.. I mean, hell, I've emailed Ray and other authors, and don't get replies that I want -- possibly because they don't want to answer it or have no need or maybe they don't know how to answer!
I'll PM Hellrider because you don't seem to like freedom as much as I do.
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Odrade
Is English your first language? Because it seems to me you skipped the reading comprehension portion.