Reform....why?

by Deacon 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Reform implies that at one time it was correct. I'm not so sure about that.

    If the 'lordship' and 'mediatorship' of the organisation were 'reformed' then what would result? Where would be the fundamental belief of the little flock and the great crowd? IMHO they can't change one without the other. So much of Witness beliefs are inter-connected such that if you change one, the others will fall, just like a stack of dominoes. So we have beliefs like 1914, Armageddon, anointed/great crowd, paradise earth all connected. Coupled with all of these is the main one of 'God's Organisation'. If unquestioning obedience to the org is be relaxed, what interesting times await!

    My feeling is that rather than relax their hold, they will try to clamp down even harder. For the sake of my friends I hope I'm wrong. Or do I? No, maybe it would be better for me to be correct then my friends might 'see the light', the real truth.

    "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins."

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "Evil is the absence of empathy"
    Movie (2000), Nuremberg

  • MrMoe 2
    MrMoe 2

    Excellent points. I believe that the WT is part of the false prophet, but I choose to lump them all together (anything false and disgusting - Mormons, Catholics, etc...)

    But, all of our doctrinal beliefs were based upon this false prophets teachings, so we as individuals need to look into our beliefs and test the accuracy of them. Take for an instance the rapture. The bible does say every eye will see him coming on a cloud; or the last chapter of Revelation where Jesus calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last; hence the trinity (?).

    Truth be told, the bible can be foggy, and with so many figurative examples, it can be hard to sort from fact and story.

    Let your heart be your guide Deacon and follow the two greatest commandments - Love your God and Love you brother as yourself. ~~ I believe in God with every fiber of my body and so I feel that is I am a good person and love others, God will find favor with me. And, to quote Ozzie - "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins." We have to do what is right, that's a fact. If you know something is a lie, will God really find favor with you?

    -Moe

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Like any living organism, survival is the WTS' overriding priority. It may well prefer prosperity to survival, but if it comes down to a choice of relent or wither away, which seems to be happening, there's no doubt what course they will take, however reluctantly.
    It would seem that the swirling whirlpool of incessant discolosure is dragging Brooklyn kicking and screaming toward the vortex of mainstream religion.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    If they are sliding toward mainstream religion, then wouldn't it negate its raison d'etre? Why belong to a corporate style religion when you can attend the worship services down the road?

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "Evil is the absence of empathy"
    Movie (2000), Nuremberg

  • blondie
    blondie

    Reforms are very rarely benign, Martin Luther, American Revolution, French Revolution, India's independence, women's suffrage movement, etc. I'm sure some will argue that the intent was peaceful at first or on the part of some, but in the end people were hurt and lives were lost.

    I'm no history buff...does anyone know of any slow, benign reforms in any group that led to a better situation? Give me hope.

    Even here at JWD, many people have differing opinions. It's by setting these opinions aside that some balance and communication is achieved. There is no discussion in the WTS...at least not below a certain level. Differing opinions are not allowed. If "reform" ever happens, it will be because there will be a power shift. Anyone here who ever served on an elder body knows what I mean...you must have a majority and the rest have to give in or be considered "not in unity with the body." Imagine all 90,000 plus elder bodies functioning that way, the COs and DOs varying on their opinions, and the different answers you can get depending on whether you ask Legal or the US Branch Office desk (formerly Service Desk). I have found it is the elders with the loudest voices and the most powerful friends that prevail.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Deacon: There are times when I will suggest 'reform' but only in the context of certain changes, such as their policy on pedophiles, shunning, and blood. If they made these changes, those of us who would enjoy some contact again with certain friends and family, could do so wihtout having to get reinstated. This type of 'reform' is to allow some simple felxibility.

    With respect to the religion as a whole, another type of 'reform' would allow for significant overhaul, such as what the Worldwide Church of God went through years ago. The WTS could still have their doctrine of a paradise earth, no hellfire, and a few other kinder beliefs, but move away from the notion that they are God's exclusive channel, and their extreme and useless beliefs.

    While both of the above types of reform are desirable, and achievable if they would simply do it, I doubt that it will happen within the next 20 years.

    A third possibility is that the religion holds rigidly to its current policies, and eventually loses significant members and fails to grow. As they shrink, they will eventually die off and go away maybe in 50 years. This possibility has real potential, and may be the best thing overall. But, as a matter of practicality it will not happen that way either.

    The Watch Tower Society, like so many organizations, whether political, business, or social, has a lot of money and assets. This alone drives people to act to protect their assets. They are a 'fad' religion that find new marketing packaging to attract younger people who are searching for answers. So, as the older generation leaves or dies off, many new younger people will join, and not understand the history. My guess is that they will be around a long time in about the same state they are in, and the only difference is that ex-JWs will have grown in number and have much more information to draw upon. So, this dynamic may very well act to keep the religion in check. Who really knows? - Amazing

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    No problem about the quotation, Deacon; I was honestly replying to a specific question. The word "reform" carries a lot of freight, and I'm glad you put in the specific context I did. Watchtower would have everyone believe that it is "opposers of the preaching work" who dissent. Not true.

    My point is that the GB as a whole is completely resistant to "reform" from anyone outside, and they cannot be seen as yielding to outside pressure. That said, do they so yield? The answer is Yes. They then present matters this way: "We have looked at the needs of the flock and have made the following loving provision. Jehovah is good, is he not?"

    By pressure from the outside, we sometimes can make it easier for individuals inside to grab the opportunity to act. Enough said?

    From the Heritage Dictionary:

    reform, v.

    1. To improve by alteration, correction of error, or removal of defects; put into a better form or condition.
    2.a. To abolish abuse or malpractice in: reform the government. b. To put an end to (a wrong).
    3. To cause (a person) to give up harmful or immoral practices; persuade to adopt a better way of life.
    ...
    1. To change for the better.

    I'm sure you see where I'm coming from. Amazing has presented some excellent points to chew on, and I'm not going to restate them. The Worldwide Church of God (former Armstrong) has made astonishing changes after great turmoil; it's quite a model to observe. Interestingly, the NY Times a while ago carried an article about the Mormon schism and dedication of its new buildings, with a name change--unthinkable a few years back.

    How do you reform individuals in their archaic Medieval view that demons are responsible for mental illness and the repressed memories of child abuse, or who grudgingly retreat to a position that says demons 'take advantage of the situation'? Only THEY can exorcise, you see; not wordly therapists.

    Maximus

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    The WTS refuses reform which is why the Free Christians movement isn't waiting:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian

  • You Know
    You Know

    Those who call for reform of God's organization don't know anything at all. It is in fact a repudiation of your own faith to presume that humans are needed to reform an organization that has Christ as it's head. And if you question whether Christ is really the head of our organization, why would you even want to reform it? Those clamoring for reform have entirely forgotten the Bible's exhortation: "Trust in Jehovah with all of your heart, and do not lean upon your own understanding."

    In other words, human understanding is inadequate to deal with all situations, especially matters pertaining to how God directs his organization. Jehovah illustrates the foolishness and sheer absurdity of humans dictating to God how to conduct his business by asking: 'Should the clay say to the potter: "What are you doing?'"

    If Jehovah were to allow apostates and malcontents to impose their ideas of "reform" upon the organization, it would in fact mean that the organization is irreformable. The only reform that is worth anything must come from heaven, and not as the result of pressure brought from a mob that would sooner destroy God's work rather than "reform" it according to their preference.

    I usually regret giving what is holy to the cannine crew, but, for those one or two precious souls who may not have had their faith and reason totally destroyed by the apostate's venom, I will share with you something that may help to restore your trust in God. An oft quoted prophecy by the WT is Zephaniah 3:9, which refers to God giving his people a change to a pure language. Presently we assume the prophecy has seen its fulfillment in the world wide brotherhood. But, read the context carefully. The preceeding verse says:'"Therefore keep yourselves in expectation of me,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'till my rising up to the booty, for my judicial decision is to gather nations, for me to collect together kingdoms, in order to pour upon them my denunciation, all my burning anger; for by the fire of my zeal all the earth will be devoured."

    Obviously, Jehovah's judicial decisions have not been realized yet. That's why Jehovah exhorts us to stay in expectation of him. But, here's the thing: according to verse 9 that's when Jehovah gives his people a change to a pure language. That verse says, in part:"For then I shall give to peoples the change to a pure language, in order for them all to call upon the name of Jehovah..."

    Notice it says, THEN. "Then" is during the time of the denunciation. So, Jehovah recognizes that reform is exactly what is needed. That's why the verse says that he will make the "CHANGE."

    Interestingly, after God gives that change, he says in the 11th verse: "...you will not be ashamed because of all your dealings which you transgressed against me, for THEN I shall remove from the midst of you your haughtily exultant ones; and you will never again be haughty in my holy mountain."

    So God recognizes our errors, and he knows exactly how to deal with them. Concurrent with the "change" that will set us aright will be the explusion of haughty and faithless ones. Jesus referred to that very judgment when he foretold that he would send forth his angels at the appointed time and get rid of not only "all things causing stumbling," which could be erroneous teachings and practices that have stumbled some already, but also the angels will remove individual who are lawless, or apostate.

    In the meantime, human attempts at reform are a clever trap designed to ensnare presumptuous ones. That's why God sternly warns his children: "My son, fear Jehovah and the king. With those who are for a change, do not intermeddle. For their disaster will arise so suddenly, that who is aware of the extinction of those who are for a change?" / You Know

  • Deacon
    Deacon

    Some deep reasonings here.

    I guess the overwhelming feeling coming through, is the need for the WTBTS to recognise that the methodology in dealing with its members, is not conducive to an interchange of honest worship or freedom of expression of heart.

    With regard to the shunning doctrine, the principle of expulsion from any organisation for not adhering to its rules is legally and morally correct, and to be fair, I dont have a problem with it. However, the stated reason for expulsion,the only reason for expulsion is unrepentance, ie, not ceasing an action or course of conduct, and not willing to change....is not adhered to. Persons are actually expelled for fornication, for stealing for lying etc...which is contrary to the scripturally stated procedure. Along with this, is the then enforced practice of shunning, and it is taken to ridiculous lengths, it destroys relationships, puts everything on a basis of conditional love, and is unscriptural.

    Then we have the blood tranfusion issue.
    Then the neutrality issue.
    Then.......

    But the question is...do we have anything to reform?
    Are the basic tenets, doctrinal understanding, channelling from God really there within the WTBTS?

    If it is, then do have to just wait for Jehovah to rectify it..

    And if it isnt..what is to stop us, members of this board who still believe in a creator, starting our own congregation and interchanging spiritual nuggets without interpretation or condemnation?

    Im just saddened to know that in the event that this did happen, some people who know that they have the true message, will try and hijack it for their own ends....

    Maybe we really are on our own.

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