Jehovah KILLED Jesus before he came to earth (page 3)

tetrapod.sapien

Ok so if you were possessed by a spirit you would no longer be human?
You'd still have human genes, you'd still be an expession of those human genes.

yes. but again, the genes make us imperfect. so jesus was perfect right? and i am saying that you have to choose one or the other. either he was imperfect, and had a genome like the rest of humans, and then died for humans (even though he was imperfect). OR, he was perfect, but still not truly human, since he did not have a proper genome. or, if you say that he was a regular human, that was just inhabited by a perfect spirit, then it was not a perfect human that died for us, but rather a perfect spirit, again annuling the so-called ransom sacrifice. somehow i don't see any of it working out very well. TS

slugga

when i talk of empty vessels i meant empty as far as personality goes.

if god just "tossed" out the "corrupt" dna, then we could not still be humans, since humans are in the end, made of cells.

I see biblical imperfection as a kind of genetic mutation. Human beings have messed up corrupt dna that stops them from being perfect. Take someone with a genetic illness, that person is still a human being even if their dna isn't 100%, if you could chuck out the corrupt mutated dna you'd get your "normal" human being wouldn't you.

Deputy Dog

ew

Jesus either commits suicide or Jehovah kills him. Its the dubs call.

It's important to get it right, you are talking about Michael here. The fun is knowing the Watchtower Jesus can't have a dual nature. This is why I ask what a life force is, If Jesus is a man with the life force of an angel, that makes him part man and part angel, not "just a man".

Next step is what is Michael today? If you think about it, the Watchtower Jesus dies never to be seen again. The man Christ Jesus (1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;) does not exist.

D Dog

tetrapod.sapien

slugga,

okay, i have a few things to say.

I see biblical imperfection as a kind of genetic mutation. Human beings have messed up corrupt dna that stops them from being perfect.

fair enough.

Take someone with a genetic illness, that person is still a human being even if their dna isn't 100%,

yes, i agree. i didn't say that a person like that wouldn't be a human because of a phenomenon like this. i would argue that they are even more human. but lets just think about something related for a moment. your argument, that imperfection is some sort of genetic mutation, assumes that god made us the way we are. and yet, some of us are worse of than others. what does this mean? it means that either god picks the people with "more corrupt" dna than others, or dna is a program that god executed that is running on its own. and if it is the later case, then:

why did god write a program that sucks so bad? people suffer more than some others. so? i thought god was omniscient?
if it runs independently of god, then why the special pleading that he did differently for jesus, and tinkered with his dna? you are really in a bind here because you not only have no evidence that god originally crippled our genomes, but also no evidence that he then decided to tinker with jesus' *half genome*. so, here are two assumptions that you cannot back up with fact. this was okay for me when i was a jw, but not anymore.

if you could chuck out the corrupt mutated dna you'd get your "normal" human being wouldn't you.

and what exactly is a "normal" human being? one like you and i? imperfect, but not mutated so badly as some others? i think this is an indefensible path you are going down bro.

last time any geneticists or biologists had a say on what made a "normal" human (or the billions of genetic variations on this theme), we shared 97% of our genome with chimps (pan troglodytes). so are you saying that as far as god is concerned, chimps are 97% perfect? how about 95% perfect? is our imperfection from god found in the 3% we do not share with chimps? or the 97% we do share with chimps?

is arnold schwarzenegger closer to godly perfection than stephen hawkin is? am i only 2.78% more perfect than chimps are? if so, why are they so dumb? and why do i share so many morphological traits with them? do you see where i am comming from, and where i am going with this?

or would it be more economic, and parsimonious to follow the natural explanation, that we are perfect already, that we share a common ancestor with chimps about 4 million years ago, and that's why we share 97% of our genomes with them?

one path has evidence to back it up. the other doesn't. which do you choose?

TS

tetrapod.sapien

The fun is knowing the Watchtower Jesus can't have a dual nature.

no DD. the fun is knowing that no xian apologists aren't using their heads, JWs or otherwise.

TS

DannyBloem

I see biblical imperfection as a kind of genetic mutation. Human beings have messed up corrupt dna that stops them from being perfect. Take someone with a genetic illness, that person is still a human being even if their dna isn't 100%, if you could chuck out the corrupt mutated dna you'd get your "normal" human being wouldn't you.

I hope this is the case.
because then we do not need jesus, because we will tehn learn to modify our DNA in that we can repar it, and that it is 100% again.

maybe we are winning the case of the question of th eoriginal sin, and we do not need God then. But maybe he will spoil us, and just as we are on the break of something, here armageddon comes.....

VM44

Hi Elderwho,

As Dog has mentioned already, the "what came down from heaven" is a air-tight unanswerable problem that works great. I watched my study(elder step father) become very uncomfortable with this problem that I would not let go away.

Yes, there is a lot implied by saying that Jesus life was transferred from the heaven realm to Mary's womb. It is not simply a matter of a being walking from the "spiritual heaven" side of existence over to the "material earthly" side of existence.

It is a matter of transferring between two different types of bodies!

Jesus either commits suicide or Jehovah kills him. Its the dubs call.

Was this question raised during the conversation with your father? If it was, what was his answer?

For the average JW, I am wondering if this particular question would be too shocking even to be asked.

--VM44

Deputy Dog

VM44

It's been my experience that it takes some time to sink in with most JWs. Most can't see all of the implications at first, it has been something I keep going back to with them. They won't like talking about it, because the WTS doesn't have much to say about it.

The Columbo approach works well on this.

D Dog

M.J.

That being so, what about during the time just before Jesus came to earth, when Jehovah transferred the memories of Michael the Archangel to the egg in Mary's womb? The egg that would develop and latter be born as Jesus the child?

Yeah as was said earlier, the WTS teaches that Jesus did not download any of "Michael's" memories until baptism. So technically, he wasn't Michael until baptism. What, exacly then was Michael's "life" that was transferred to the womb? Not even memories were transferred.

So if you think about it, Jesus was a totally NEW and UNIQUE individual from age 0-33. Then upon baptism, a new idenitity stole Jesus' body! The old identity at this point was either killed, or Jesus took on a dual identity.

Here's a quote from the WT:

***

w92 2/15 p. 11 The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived ***

14

Then, nearly two thousand years ago, God transferred his Son’s life to the womb of a woman. He thereby came to be a human son of God, born in the normal manner through a woman. (Galatians 4:4) While Jesus was developing in the womb of his mother, Mary, and later when he was growing up as a boy, he was dependent upon those whom God had selected to be his earthly parents. Eventually Jesus reached manhood, and evidently then he was granted memory of his previous association with God in heaven. This occurred ‘when the heavens were opened up to him’ at his baptism.—Matthew 3:16; John 8:23; 17:5.

VM44

"God transferred his Son’s life to the womb of a woman."

It is so easy to read right on by that without asking what it really means.During a congregation book study, the question for the paragraph would be asked, "What did God transfer from heaven?" Answer: "His Son's life!", "Correct! Next paragraph"

So all that is learned is how to answer the question with some words, no understanding is achieved. This happens over and over throughout the book study, but that is a topic for another discussion.

As elderwho mentioned in an earlier posting, it does come down to asking, "Exactly what was transferred from heaven to earth when Jesus became a man?"

--VM44

Jehovah KILLED Jesus before he came to earth

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