by Honesty 146 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
If God inspired the bible to inform man of himself and Christ he sure messed it up. It seems no two religions can agree on much of what it tries to say on any subject. It seems a waste of time to continue to try to decipher what it all means. I think God would be laughing at us trying to understand him with the bible as our instruction manuel.
Ken P.
Ken that would only be true if God had made it impossible for us to understand. He did not. Man did. The Bible is EASY to understand. Why would we trust the Watchtower to TELL US what the Bible means when most of us know they, the WTBTS, has made detrimental errors in doctrine?
The Bible make the Deity of Christ clear. Man has chosen to tweak the Word of God for many reasons. The NWT admits that they have done so because it makes more sense to change the meaning.
First we must understand what the Bible REALLY has to say, then it is everyone's choice to believe it or not. After the Dubs we all need a clean slate, and that is not easy to achieve, but not impossible either.
If God inspired the bible to inform man of himself and Christ he sure messed it up. It seems no two religions can agree on much of what it tries to say on any subject. It seems a waste of time to continue to try to decipher what it all means. I think God would be laughing at us trying to understand him with the bible as our instruction manuel.
Amen big brother Ken. Some here seem to think the bible is crystal clear in it's message along with jesus identity.......I guess that's why we have ump-teen millions of religions that all have their different twist on the bible and it's meaning.
Do you trinitarians actually believe that ALL other religions who won't swallow the idea that Jesus is god are a rebellious close minded people unlike yourself who feels your right and they are wrong?
I'll make you a bet ApostateKate. If we could find 50 people who are "unfamiliar" with the bible and it's teachings and we could have them read the N.T...........then ask them who they think Jesus is.......I'd put $100 on the answer would be "he's gods son". If you asked them if they thought he was god......they would say "no".
Ken is correct. If this book were truly from god himself, there would be no mistake on who Jesus was.
Gumonotheistic
The Bible is EASY to understand
That's true. e.g.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
BlessedStar
this trinitarian B elief S ystem about pre-eminance is really rather sillyLook, no offence but the Bible is CLEAR about who Jesus is. It is every individuals CHOICE to believe it or not. Just don't try to rewrite the Bible. The Watchtower did that for us and look where it got us.
yes I find the bible exceedingly clear that character called Jesus is NOT the god of the bible, but a creature. who was GRANTED special status, GIVEN special powers, AUTHORIZED to do special works.... MADE both LORD and CHRIST by GOD [acts]
Some are still thinking in the way the Watchtower taught us to think.
I have no doubt that if anyone who had never read the bible befor, would understand that Jesus was Devine, of God, and given all authority as the only Son of God. No angel or creation was ever called "only begotten" the one and only, there is no other, never was any other like Jesus. He had all power, was all knowing, bought and paid the price for every human life that ever was.
John 1:1-18 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Does this really sound like a created angel? Or a mere man? Come on! Honestly. No I don't think any person in the world, without a preconcieved idea, would read this and come away with; Jesus was an angel, then a man, then a spirit creature, nope, no way.
The Watchtower wants us to believe that everyone who believes in the Deity of Chirst are Modalists. That is not true. Here is how Matt Slick explains modalism because I am not an educated apostate.
Modalism
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.
Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Modalism
I have no doubt that if anyone who had never read the bible befor, would understand that Jesus was Devine, of God, and given all authority as the only Son of God. No angel or creation was ever called "only begotten" the one and only, there is no other, never was any other like Jesus. He had all power, was all knowing, bought and paid the price for every human life that ever was.
And you avoided my question.
I stated nobody would think he was god....didn't I? I never said they would not think he was devine, or "of" god. I said they would not think he WAS god.
Gumby
some make false assumptions about JW influences.
while a JW, I lost some blind trust due to debates with trinitarians and did my own personal research on the trinity issue, independantly of
JW teachings.... I found 125 or so verses which mention the father and son together, mostly as GOD and Jesus, and could not help but conclude that JWs were correct in seeing the trinity as false.
after leaving JWs my brother, who has never been a JW nor in any way influenced by them, started
his own independant research about the trinity question and came to the conclusion that the trinity was
a complete fabrication and could not possibily found by anyone who read the bible honestly without being
first influenced by trinitarians.
he has called me to discuss this and we have thrashed this out for several years now and he knows I really dont care which way it
is any more as I have moved beyond christianity and its just myths to me now.
I don't think many who have been JWs would say that they have not been influenced in what to believe, I mean that is what being a JW was all about. Seeing God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, us, the world, religion THEIR way. People who first pick up a Bible and read it without having been influenced by the Borg do not come to the same conclusions.
Personally I do not use the word Trinity simply because it is yet another way to describe something that is beyond human comprehension; Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began..
Here is the root of the issue as it applied to me. I will never assume that just because you were also a JW, that you had the same experience. I totally respect you and am truly happy for you. For me it was the difference of having a personal relationship with God. For knowing that Jesus is my personal Mediator, not just for the 144,000.
It is knowing that I can talk and pray to Jesus; ( Acts 7:59 ; 1 Cor. 1:2 )
He gives me eternal life ( John 20:28 ) through grace; Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Like I said before. I respect it is anyone's choice to believe or not, but I will not allow the Watchtower to continue to interfere with my relationship with Jesus.
