The Trinity... is it a false teaching as the WTBTS claims?

by Honesty 146 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    Due to what happened to my child and my work with Silent Lambs, I have no reason to love or defend the WT at all. I hope they implode. But I have a few questions. If Jesus is the mediator between God and man, how can he be God? A mediator works between two different parties. He is never one of those parties, is he? Jesus also said something to the effect that "I am ascending to your God and MY God". If Jesus "has a God", it appears that he is not equal to God Almighty, although I admit he is called "a god" in scripture. There were also things Jesus didn't know, but said that God did know. So he can't share the same mind or brain as God has. And when Jesus was dead, remembering Eccl. verses about "the dead know nothing" and similar concepts, how could he know 3 days had passed and it was time to "resurrect himself"? If he's "out", then who woke him up in time? These are some of the things I think might apply to this discussion. But I do feel it will never be settled for sure. Maybe on Judgment Day, if that ever comes. I don't care anymore because I'm now a confirmed agnostic. I don't believe in God and I don't believe it's possible to prove his existence or disprove it. Thank you all for your thoughts.

    I'm so sorry about your daughter. I hope that Silent Lambs has been able to help you get justice. As far as the Deity of Christ the Watchtower had us programmed to think in finite terms. How can Jesus be the Son and God at the same time. I know this may sound quite juvenile but God can do anything He wants to, He is God. Now if it were possible to cross a Human with a lion, you would get one strange looking creature. It would have power and intellect. Impossible yes, but the Bible tells us that nothing is impossible with God. Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. ASV Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.KJV The Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost is God, not some elusive active force. Mary was impregnated by God. By His Holy Spirit. Then His child was given authority over all things. This Son was with Him from the beginning which there really was never a beginning because God is infinite. This is the hardest concept for us humans to understand. Everything about our lives is finite. When we gaze into the heavens we can see the black spaces between the stars, thus infinity. There is no end to space, God, or His human/God Son. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.KJV Here is a verse we were never taught; Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it. When King Solomon said that in the other passage about the dead know nothing, we have to take in context what he was talking about, to whom and why. He was rambling on about vanity! Not the eternal soul. Of course the Watchtower used that to brainwash us to believe that when we die we die. Not true according to the Bible in its entirety. Whether one believes or not that is purely an individuals choice. What burns me up though is the misunderstanding the WTBTS has left us with. There is one way to interpret Scripture and one way only. That is to interpret it the way the writer meant for it to be understood. That is not impossible to do either.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    A friend who prefers not to post for personal reasons asked me some questions that each and every one of us really should think about.

    Who did God entrust to canonize the bible?

    Why was the bible canonized to begin with?

    What were the teachings of those that canonized the bible?

    Were they pro Christ-deity or pro Christ-man?

    Weren't there others in that time that Did Not believe that Christ was God? If so, why wouldn't God use them?

    Also, in regards to the Holy Spirit not being personified:

    If the Greek word for Spirit does not reflect the qualities of a person (a WATCHTOWER doctrine) then doesn't that mean that the Spirit that was Christ in his prehuman existance is not the person of Christ?

    Just an impersonal active force?

    The reason why the Holy Spirit does not have a name, is because it is not needed.

    In the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, one name identifies all three.
    It is the meaning behind the name not the letters.

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    hey there Kristopher,

    Heb 1:8 "Thy throne, O God, is forever."

    To me, it could mean 1 of 2 things. 1st idea is: The g is small and they are talking about Jesus as a 'god' having his throne for ever.

    2nd idea: The G is big and he's saying that he will be a co-ruler with God and in his 'bosom' position forever. John 1:18

    Kristopher and Honesty:

    John 1:1 NIV "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."
    John 1:18 Diaglott version No one has ever seen God: the only begotten son (god); who is in the bomom of the father, he has made him known."

    John 1:1 could mean 1 or 2 things..

    1. Jesus is God

    2. Jesus is a god

    I prefer def. 2. because it coinsides with John 1:18 and stays in context with the rest of the chapter. As we know, people have seen Jesus; so he couldn't be God.

    John 5:18 "He was even call God his own Father , making Himself equal to God."
    Mark 2:5-7 "He's blaspheming, (by forgiving sins) , Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

    The pharisees were saying, he was making himself equal to God, because he said he was God's son and because he was forgiving sins. They were simply mistaking in their analogy. That's all.

    Hosea 13:41 "No savior exists besides me."

    At the time, this was true, Jesus wasn't born yet to even begin to take on the 'savior' role.

    Acts. 4:11-12 "This is the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner. Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."
    Honesty, notice it says, 'not another name under heaven'. Under heaven...(not in heaven) but under heaven. Also Jesus was the ' way' and nobody comes to the father except through him. So at that time, Jesus was the only name in which, to come to the father through. He was the Mediator..the ONLY way to the father.. but couldn't be the father, as he the way to the father. Think of it like this..If I told you, that you could only get to my house by means of a boat, you would assume that the boat, that was taking you to my house, wasn't my house. So the boat can't be the house...
  • Kristofer
    Kristofer

    THere was recently another posting with this line of reasoning...

    I think you're trying to put Almighty God into finite terms, which I think is an impossibility. The closest I can come is you took a lit candle flame from a fire. It is separate, but essentially still a part of the fire, is it not? This is how I think of God and it is how the early Christians (i.e. Justin Martyr) viewed the Trinity as well.

    If the pharisees were mistaken in their analogy, wouldn't Christ have told them they were mistaken?

    Also regarding Savior, are you suggesting that Jesus didn't have a pre-existence before his human birth? To say he was not the savior before his birth is to imply that he wasn't in existence.

    Do you believe that Christ is eternal? or created? Scripture states, he was before all things and created all things. If he was an object of creation, then this statement would be false. He can't be a thing if he was before all things. What is the only object we know that is above being a thing in terms that we understand. That being, that concept that essence is what we know as God who made himself manifest in 3 different ways. As Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit, separate but co-existent and co-equal.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    John 1:1 could mean 1 or 2 things..

    1. Jesus is God

    2. Jesus is a god

    I prefer def. 2. because it coinsides with John 1:18 and stays in context with the rest of the chapter. As we know, people have seen Jesus; so he couldn't be God.

    Personally I am a monotheist. That is why the JW concept of two Gods was disturbing.

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Hi again...I guess we are both pretty well convinced on our beliefs..but I did want to answer you And I wouldn't want to cause hard feelings.

    Kristopher: You are thinking Jesus is of the same substance or nature as God like a flame and a fire. Maybe, and maybe the angels too as they are called 'flames of fire'. And they are all spirits, too.
    Mar 23, 2006
    Ps. 104:5 NIV "He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants"
    If the pharisees were mistaken in their analogy, wouldn't Christ have told them they were mistaken?
    Kris...see the last scrip on page..where he was defending that accusation....
    To say he was not the savior before his birth is to imply that he wasn't in existence.
    Well, why? He actually wasn't a savior yet. It would be like if you were to become the president, I wouldn't actually call you the president while you were still a senator.
    Do you believe that Christ is eternal? or created? Scripture states, he was before all things and created all things. If he was an object of creation, then this statement would be false. He can't be a thing if he was before all things.

    I believe he is immortal..yes.. Created, yes.. Col. 1:15 NIV "he is the first born of all creation"

    Scriptures don't actually call Jesus the Creator..but a master worker for God in which all things were created through him. Why couldn't God use him to help with creation and still be a creation?

    That being, that concept that essence is what we know as God who made himself manifest in 3 different ways.

    I agree with you...we know God, because Jesus manifested his qualities perfectly and was a perfect reflection. So God used him to make himself manifest,.which he could be if he was his bosom bud for millions of years...the holy spirit perfectly reflects God too and therefore manifests him.

    Personally I am a monotheist. That is why the JW concept of two Gods was disturbing.

    Honesty...remember this scripture where God calls the angels, gods also. The god with a small g simply means: a divine being..or thing.. So I'm a monotheist, too.

    Ps. 82:6 NIV "I said, 'You are "gods", you are all sons of the Most High......."
    John 10:34 NIV "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken. What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?"

    And this one where Jesus was defending their blaspheme accusation, by quoting the psalms.

    have a good one..

  • Kristofer
    Kristofer

    Firstborn? Many Bibles accurately translate Col. 1:15 as the "source" of all creation. I believe even the original 1950 edition of the NWT translated this as source. I don't think firstborn holds much water since there are more times when firstborn refers to one who presides over something than actually being the first one born. See Ephraim & Menasseh, King David etc..

    So when John says and God was the Word, is this not correct?
    I don't think the word "savior" applies to an office as president does. It's not like you a savior one day and not another day. I think it's clear throughout the NT that Christ applies the same titles of Yahweh to himself. Lord of Lords, The Almighty, First & Last, Alpha & Omega.

    As far as using the word "god" with a little "g", the Greek makes no distinction between lowercase and capitals, that is an English application.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    I believe he is immortal..yes.. Created, yes.. Col. 1:15 NIV "he is the first born of all creation"

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.WEB

    Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;ASV

    Colossians 1:15 Who <hos> is <esti> the image <eikon> of the invisible <aoratos> God <theos>, the firstborn <prototokos> of every <pas> creature <ktisis>:

    . PROTOTOKOS does not mean created. It means, and was used in Greek, to explain in Greek Hebrew terms that Jesus is PREEMMINENT. Over all things. The writer NEVER meant for anyone to assume that this scripture meant Jesus was created. He never was. He could not have been because His Father, where He came from, is GOD and GOD never had a beginning.

    prwtotokoV prototokos pro-tot-ok'-os

    first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):-firstbegotten(-born).

    prwtoV protos pro'-tos

    contracted superlative of 4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):--before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

    pro pro pro

    a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:--above, ago, before, or ever. In the comparative, it retains the same significations.

    Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    To say that when Jesus was called firtstborn meant that he was created, is to say He was created at the time of his human birth. The Watchtower LIED again about what firstborn means. Either they know the truth about protokos and the governing body are following followers anyway, or they really believe it and are victims of victims. Ether way it is WRONG. Jesus was never referred to as having had a begining or was created. That word is ktizo.

    Mark 13:19 For <gar> in those <ekeinos> days <hemera> shall be <esomai> affliction <thlipsis>, such <toioutos> as <hoios> was <ginomai> not <ou> from <apo> the beginning <arche> of the creation <ktisis> which <hos> God <theos> created <ktizo> unto <heos> this time <nun>, neither <kai> <ou me> shall be <ginomai>.

    Jesus is preemminent in all things.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate
    Scriptures don't actually call Jesus the Creator..but a master worker for God in which all things were created through him. Why couldn't God use him to help with creation and still be a creation?

    Why? Because the Bible is clear about who Jesus is. He is worthy to be worshipped, honored, and glorified. .

    Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    In other words...if the Bible writers had meant to say that Jesus was created, the writers would have used a form of ktizo to describe who and what Jesus was and where He came from.

    Colossians 1:15 Who <hos> is <esti> the image <eikon> of the invisible <aoratos> God <theos>, the firstborn <prototokos> of every <pas> creature <ktisis>: KJSV

    would have been written like this; "hos esti eikon aoratos theos ktisos pas ktisis". It was not written like this, now has it EVER been written like this concerning the substance of who Jesus is.

    It is not as if the Watchtower has never made biblical mistakes right?

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