Did Jehovah destroy millions with a flood in Noah's day?

by fish 96 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    Fish,

    You ask a great question, and part of the reason that you havent gotten the answer you deserve is because the conversation got sidetracked, and alot of that is my fault. So you have my sincere apologies...

    You know, I used to be a believer in the flood, and actually taught it while conducting book study, and of course going to door to door, and fought for its defense in High School. I began to have some problems, like you, over the idea that God could just wipe everyone out 4300 to 4400 years ago. Needless to say, I dont believe in the flood anymore, and part of that is because of the bible, but most of that is because of an objective and real look at the world that we live in, and the actual logistics of the flood. Here is some information that helped me, maybe it will help you decide what you think...

    (1) Within the bible, Cain is believed to be the father of the group known as the Kenites. Tracing their ancestral history leads to some of Cain's offspring. You can find mention of the Kenites throughout the Old Testament. Numbers 24:21, Genesis 15:19 and several others. The thing about this is, that these ancestors of Cain are all around after the flood. I always thought this was kind of odd, because it would mean that this group would have had to reform after God destroyed that system of things. The only ones around to teach that would have been the 8 faithful persons that God had just saved. Seemed like kind of a stretch.

    (2) Running along that same line of reasoning, the 8 faithful men and women would have had to teach all of the false religions of Egypt, and reestablish many of the gods worshipped by the Sumerians and the Accadians, that all existed before the chronoligically assumed date of the flood, as well as restablish such cities like Ur, which were hotbeds of what would have been the type of false religion that Jehovah would have been trying to destroy in the first place. There were only 8 people that would have been around to teach all of these things. Did the 8 people that Jehovah saved reteach all these falsehoods so well that entire cultures reestablished themselves around them?

    (3) As has been discussed in the thread at length, another assumed purpose of the flood was to wipe out the Nephilim. Numbers 13:33 indicates that clearly didnt happen. The only way that it could be possible for the Nephilim to reemerge would be if the 8 that God saved had the genes for the Nephilim themselves, which we know is not the case.

    (4) To this day, shipbuilding technology does not exist to construct a wooden ship to the specifications that the ark was supposed to measure.

    (5) If the water existed in the form of a vapor canopy above mankind, as the bible does suggest, and the witnesses argue for, no one would be able to live. The reason behind this is atmospheric pressure. We all have approximately 14 pounds of atmosphere pressing down on every square inch of our bodies. This is the weight of the air itself as the gravity of the Earth pulls the atmosphere towards its center. This constant pressure is what causes air to travel in and out of your lungs when you flex and contract your diaphragm. If a spherical shell of water 10 feet deep was placed around the earth everyone on the surface would feel the pressure of being ten feet under water. That is because the weight of the water would press down on the atmosphere, which would then press down on you. If that canopy is going to contain enough water to cover the tallest mountain, or even a small fraction of it, it would have crushed everybody. If 1% of the water in the flood came from the canopy and it could cover the tallest mountain that would still be 290 feet of water. No one could survive that. And why would God create a world like that where that was the way it was supposed to be? Unless he planned for the need to kill everyone by a flood, which would make it hard to justify the emotion of "regret" regarding making mankind. And if he changed mankind to readapt to their new environment, then he would have also had to change the animals. It just starts getting kind of crazy. You see what I mean?

    (6) Additionally, I dont believe in the flood anymore because there really isnt any evidence of it, actually overwhelming evidence against it. As Mary correctly pointed out, we would see a nearly uniform ratio of fossilization of marine and terrestrial animals covering the entire globe. Also, there would be a uniform sedimentary layer covering the entire globe. There are also trees that are still alive that are over 5000 years old. Would these have survived the flood? Additionally, there is a lot of worry today about melting icecaps lowering the salinity in the oceans and how that will effect our ecosystems, a small change could effect our weather for years. What would have happened in the case of a global flood? How did Noah gather all of the animals? There are millions of species. He would have had to load several dozen pairs per second, nonstop in order to get them all in there, and to top it off, he would need to feed them all for a year. Many of the species he would have had to save only consume live, or recently dead, flesh. Some only have the capacity to consume rotting tissue. How were they fed? What about the bugs? Where was the greenhouse to keep the vegitation fresh for all of the herbivores? Many herbivores supplement their digestive systems with the enzymes contained in the vegitation that they eat, they can not have rotten vegitation. Where was all this held? You can get on a rant and really keep going with this...believe me, I have!

    There are a whole slew of other reasons....but I gotta get back to work! Please let me know if you want to hear more. Anyone else, please feel free to chime in! Anyone who cares to disagree, please feel free. A healthy dialogue is always good...

    Oh, and I got the name Slacker because I never take a break, and I really dont sleep! Its a joke...

    Take care.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Mr Kim

    I will admit that geology isn't an area I have studied intensively, I did it at school. Strangely my lectures never once mentioned that geological science supported the idea of a world wide flood, obviously there has been some recent advances in geological science that I am unaware of (I do read new scientist regularly but obviously that particular nugget passed them by).

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me in the direction of the peer-reviewed paper that you are basing your comments on.

    I look forward to a response that is as wise, thoughtful and thought provoking as your other recent posts. Obviously someone in as lofty a position as yourself must have a lot of demands on your time and I apologize most profusely for taking up so much of your time on such a trivial matter.

    Caedes

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    Well, I just dont know what to think. I really believe the bible is God's inspired word. It seems no one here does anymore.

    Fish: If you believe the Bible is Gods inspired word, that`s your right. I don`t (at least not all of it), and I guess you`re right, not many here on this board believes in it anymore. But don`t let anyone tell you what to believe or not. That`s all up to you, and noone else.

    Either God is going to destroy billions at Armageddon like he did in Noah's day ...OR...the flood was just a myth, a legend. But the bible doesnt present it as such. It presents it as an actual event. Not just in Genesis, but elsewhere it is referred to such as the geneology records in 1 Chronicles. In Luke Jesus' lineage is traced all the way to Noah and then to Adam. Noah's example is included right along with other faithful ones in Hebrews. For someone to say they believe in the bible but that the account of Noah's flood is only a legend is ludricous in my opinion.

    Well, that goes for a lot of other things in the Bible too. Your problem is that you feel there is an either/or. Either all the stories in the Bible are true, or nothing is true. After all, if there is some truth, but not all, then how can we know what is true and what is not? Right? I used to think that way for a very, very long time. This is very common among ex-JWs, and I think that might be why so many of them become atheists. But there are solutions to this problem (because the atheists here are right, a worldwide flood never happened, neither did the "day stop" in that battle in Joshua 10, etc, etc). But can`t these stories be interpreted symbolically? When you were a JW, you saw no problem when the Society told you that certain things in the Bible was to be interpreted symbolically, right? Why can`t you resort to that solution here too?

    So that still leaves me with the question of how God can justify killing millions of people. Will he really do that?
    No. Does it say in the Bible that God is going to kill off the whole human race, except for a tiny group (like...1/10000)? Where? The Bible doesn`t teach that. The whole concept of a worldwide Armageddon is something you still have left in you, from the JW-version/interpretation of the Bible. Those passages can, and should, be interpreted in a completely different way. A key word here is context! The Biblical prophecies have both short-term and long-term interpretations. When Jesus said "this generation", that meant the people living in his day, and that prophecy was fulfilled (of course, from a historical pov, the "prophecy" came about after it had happened, lol), because the jews had to flee Jerusalem 40 years after Jesus` death, when the Romans had finally had enough of all of their crap, and kicked them out. If you view everything in the Bible as things that relate to the time you and I live in, then you`ll never get it right.
  • Genesis
    Genesis

    Obviously Mr. Kim is bringing shame on us Quebecois, but guess what, every nations has their morons...

  • fish
    fish
    Well, that goes for a lot of other things in the Bible too. Your problem is that you feel there is an either/or. Either all the stories in the Bible are true, or nothing is true. After all, if there is some truth, but not all, then how can we know what is true and what is not? Right? I used to think that way for a very, very long time. This is very common among ex-JWs, and I think that might be why so many of them become atheists. But there are solutions to this problem (because the atheists here are right, a worldwide flood never happened, neither did the "day stop" in that battle in Joshua 10, etc, etc). But can`t these stories be interpreted symbolically? When you were a JW, you saw no problem when the Society told you that certain things in the Bible was to be interpreted symbolically, right? Why can`t you resort to that solution here too?

    But the bible never even hints that the flood account is only symbolic. Quite the opposite, it backs it up later in other books as an actual real occurrence. I really dont see how anyone could think it's symbolic. And what would it be symbolic OF anyway? If it didnt happen then it's just a lie and therefore why would I bother reading or taken seriously anything else in the bible?

    No. Does it say in the Bible that God is going to kill off the whole human race, except for a tiny group (like...1/10000)? Where? The Bible doesn`t teach that. The whole concept of a worldwide Armageddon is something you still have left in you, from the JW-version/interpretation of the Bible. Those passages can, and should, be interpreted in a completely different way. A key word here is context! The Biblical prophecies have both short-term and long-term interpretations. When Jesus said "this generation", that meant the people living in his day, and that prophecy was fulfilled (of course, from a historical pov, the "prophecy" came about after it had happened, lol), because the jews had to flee Jerusalem 40 years after Jesus` death, when the Romans had finally had enough of all of their crap, and kicked them out. If you view everything in the Bible as things that relate to the time you and I live in, then you`ll never get it right.

    If God destroyed millions in Noah's day, why would I not believe he has it in him to do it again as Jesus said would happen?

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore

    This is one of the 4 main reasons I'm going to leave, so here's my opinion using all the terminology and beliefs of a JW, I'll give you my ideas biblicaly not scientificaly: (Because scientifically there's no question that it didn't happen.)

    God is the opitome of love, justice, wisdom and power... does the flood story support that idea? Lets see.

    Love: would a loving god make Noah and his small family spend over a hundred years building an ark big enough for his family, and all the animals? And then make him spend a year in that stinky cramped box taking care of tens of thousands of animals every day? (If it's even physically possible for eight people to care for the needs of all them critters.)

    Justice: Would a just god kill not only the "bad" people (Who are in fact not bad, but simply not good.) But also billions of animals. And worse yet millions of innocent babies and children!

    Wisdom: Would a wise god spend over a hundred years preparing for an event and then covering up all evidence of it afterward? And would he expect anyone at all to believe some random old guy who says the world is about to end? Heck we have thousands of people like that. They lock 'em up and stick them in an insanity ward. No christian would believe them, so why would anyone believe Noah?

    Power: Yes a worldwide flood is pretty awesome. But it would be even more amazing for him to just snap his fingers and show just how well he can use his powers, by only killing the bad guys.

    So, biblicaly speaking, does it sound like something that really happened, or just a story god had put in the bible as an illustration?

    I don't know about you, but even if I did believe that the bible is inspired by god, I would still believe that the flood was just a story, with the purpose of instruction. They say that Jesus confirmed it... But he acctualy didn't. He spoke of it as if it happened. But he did that with most of his illustrations.

    As far science, Slacker covered it pretty good.

    So I apologise if I offend anybody with my somewhat dogmatic opinion. But if you do believe in it, you might want to reconsider whether or not your god deserves any worship.

  • SickofLies
  • free2beme
    free2beme

    Actually, the story of Noah came from a exodus to this planet. You see on a far away world, they saw that their world was coming to an end for misuse of their planet in pursuit of wealth and not science. So when the planet saw that the world was going to be destroyed by a meteor, that would cause great quakes and flooding that would cover the planet and destroy everyone. A lone scientist built a space craft and collected DNA from all the animals of his world, and took his family and launched off the planet just hours before the planet was destroyed. They traveled 40 light years to the only known planet that could support all the life his planet had, which was earth, which had a large vegetation life form, but little physical life. Especially after the Dinosaur experiment had been ended, due to the animals dying off from to much genetic manipulation. So this man, populated this world using the DNA he brought and his sons and daughters (who were also scientist), took the primitive men they found on this planet, that were put there as stage two in the experiment of life on this world, and redesigned their DNA to make them take a major leap in development to become the modern human we know today. After all the animals were grown and placed in locations that fit their design worldwide, they left our planet and returned to their home world to look for survivors. Many years later, after a failed attempt to revise their world that was so decimated. A few returned to earth to find a population that had grown in culture, they interacted for awhile, but were considered Gods. As even their stories of the world destroyed, were soon find places in myths of Atlantis and Mount Olympus. So they left, realizing that their presence and knowledge, will have ruined this planet with people worshipping beings that lived above in the heavens. Who actually were just an advanced race from another world. So they decided that since they were about to fight death, and live many years beyond what humans could imagine. They would wait until our species matured, and return one day to explain what happened and hopefully right the wrong their presence did so many centuries before. Until then, they travel the universe looking for others from their planet who may have escaped, with a hope of building a great world of science again. That could some day bring a universal peace, were all could life to the advancement of knowledge.

    Okay, I have been watching to much science fiction lately and decided to have some fun .... but you never know!

  • slacker911
    slacker911

    Free2beme,

    You know there is an irony in your post. Even though you were obviously joking, which you make clear at the end, your joke is really more plausible then the flood legend as found in the bible when everything is taken into account...that is one of the reasons that I have soooooo little respect for the bible in general.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Fish:

    But the bible never even hints that the flood account is only symbolic. Quite the opposite, it backs it up later in other books as an actual real occurrence. I really dont see how anyone could think it's symbolic.

    The Bible doesn`t hint to the creation in Genesis to be symbolic either, but that doesn`t change the fact that the world is older than 6000 (or 55000) years, does it? I mean, do you still believe in the JW-version of the creation too? And the dinosaurs? When did they live? Do you know about C-14-dating? Do you know that mountains in west-africa has the exact same age, according to C-14-dating as mountains in east-America? And when the continents drift apart so and so many inches every year (which can be measured from satelites) and when then measuring the distance between Africa and America, this tells us that the contintents have been drifting for so and so many millions of years? You can`t just ignore science, man. So the creation-story of the Bible has to be read symbolically. That goes for all the other things in the Bible that modern science can assure us with a 100% accuracy never happened (unless God was just being deceitful and left us with tons of evidence pointing to the Big Bang-theory, with 5 billions years being the perspective, and evolution of the species, etc, to "test our faith", of course, ha ha). And what difference would it make, even though Jesus refers to this incident, if you want to interpret it symbolically? Or maybe you could interpret it as a local event, which, to the author of the text, was believed to have included the whole earth? Listen: What if you were to try viewing the Bible as inspired, as opposed to viewing it as God holding the pen?

    If God destroyed millions in Noah's day, why would I not believe he has it in him to do it again as Jesus said would happen?

    Well, he wouldn`t be a God of Love then, would he? Do you really believe the JW-version of Armageddon? This is the JW-version of Armageddon (I don`t have any scans here, but look thru Blondies posts, she has written a lot about these things):

    - Only baptised JWs in "good standing", and their children, "has any hope of surviving into the new system of things". This sentence is actually a direct quote I remember from a WT (despite that this is not what the Bible means, the Bible says "the meek"! The meek! Not "those belonging to just one of the christian cults of the earth"). Do you know what this means? It means that God, according to the JW-version, is going to kill 5994 million people (at least)! If we assume that 10% of the worlds population is children under the age of 7 (which is a modest estimate, I think, considering the number of kids people have in the 3rd world countries), this means that God is going to kill around 600 million children under the age of 7, just because their parents aren`t Jehovahs Witnoids.

    Read that last paragraph again. Try to imagine, paint a picture in your head, of little children, infants, toddlers, kindergarten-kids, falling to the ground, dismembered, in a pool of blood. Do you really believe this is what God has in store for the humans? That God could really do something like this? That this is what is meant by "rivers of blood"? I certainly don`t. I think that God might have "the lake of fire" in store for the evil ones. But 99.94% of the earths population is not evil. Only a very few are pure evil. Then there are a few that are very good, and then there`s a whole lot inbetween.

    There are thousands of ways to read the Bible. You have a huge challenge in front of you: Ridding yourself of the the JW-glasses you are still wearing when reading the Bible!

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit