Shunning and Friendship...two different things. (page 2)

sammielee24

When someone loves you, it should FEEL like they love you

I have to agree with Tall Penguin on this one....shunning = death. I have strong feelings on this issue and summarily I believe that It is easier for Witnesses to adhere to shunning by thinking of someone in terms of being dead - which they do very effectively. There is loyalty only for those who are or remain within the circle...I have yet to see that loyalty exhibited toward any outsider. There is conditional love for those inside the circle...you remain inside or the love stops. The WTS makes it easy for parents to hand over the raising of their kids to the organization - it tells you how to think, what you should and shouldn't do, how to dress, what music to listen to, what books to read, what video games to play, what sports to play, what people to chat with, how to discipline - it teaches how to snitch on others and spy on them; it instills fear in them of all the world and it's people - most of whom are kind, loving and loyal; it breeds isolation from other non Witness family so that you have no social interaction and skills in order to achieve some semblance of critical reasoning......the list goes on and on until yes - the society leads you to believe that love means murdering your own children or burying them if, quite simply, they don't want to belong to your religion anymore.

When a Witness can allow their child, or their parent, or their sibling, spouse - to walk away and never speak to them again - that is love? For no greater issue than not being a Witness? For the sake of a word - disfellowshipping? To never WANT that person in their life, never know grandchildren, never know if they live or die, never know if they are homeless or sick, to know if they got married or moved across the world - that is love? To have more love and loyalty for an organization than you do for people? Sorry - not for me.

When you watch movies like the Grey Zone or Schindlers List and you see the horror of babies pulled from mothers arms, when you witness the grief of spouses being ripped apart, when you hear the voices of those who survived that horror and still 60 years later they cry when they talk about their loved ones....how much they so want to see their face again...how they relive those moments of separation - it breaks your heart because they didn't have a choice. They had to endure the actual death of their loved ones - their love was real - and it was severed by others - and the hole in their heart remained. Witnesses sever the love over a word - the organization feeds on self indulgence and selfishness - and we won't get into the lies.

There are nice people everywhere including the Watchtower...it's simply a shame that the Watchtower keeps it's flock in a cage so they never get to experience or understand the true value of loving thy neighbour...

sammieswife.

tall penguin

When I say misguided, I mean a misguided sense of what love is. Gumby you said "When I saw a disfellowshipped person coming to the assembly or hall and this one looked like they were hurt but really trying to "get back in", I wanted to go hug them and welcome them, thank them for coming and trying so hard......but I couldn't."
To me, this is the hallmark of a misguided love, going against what you feel to be right in your heart and telling yourself it's love. I wonder if at that point, there's another emotion that more aptly describes what is motivating the behaviour?
"A marriage is also conditional. If you cheat on your mate and hurt them bad enough, they may leave you although this one will be hurt, still love you, and grieve to no end.......but you betrayed them. Is 'conditional' a bad thing?" Yes, the contract of marriage may very well be conditional. Yet love does not have to be. In its purest form, love extends to all beings regardless of their behaviour towards us. I have by no means even begun to reach this level of love, yet I've seen it in action from others. I think children reflect it well. Their love is boundless.
Gary: "That's quite a job, separating love from behavior. If love can be separated from behavior then hate can be separated from behavior too. That means behavior doesn't matter . . . or love and hate don't matter."
Perhaps Gary's comments raise an even more interesting question: Can we even separate love from behaviour?
What is love anyway? I find the word thrown around very casually in this life. Like all language, I think it means different things to different people. I find language so very limiting and utterly futile at times like these. My apologies for opening up a dialogue I may be painfully inadequate to finish.
tall penguin

garybuss

In these parts, love IS behavior . . . nothing else. Love is not motive. Motive is motive. If you hit me and call it love you'll find yourself flat on your loving ass.

tall penguin

lol @ gary
You really have such a way with words!
tall penguin

KW13

i've never seen it put that way before but its true. Witnesses dont try and claw us back as a punishment. they think they know what is best.

sammielee24

Can we even separate love from behaviour?

And do we want to?..It's the way we separate and catalogue our emotions in a way so that our behaviour is justifiable or our priority is clear perhaps. If we 'love' someone, most often there is an expectation of behaviour that is attached to the word - responsibility, obligation, loyalty, respect, emotion, future. If we 'like' someone, perhaps we tone down those same expectations in ourselves or others so that if we have to put our family who we 'love' unconditionally first - we do it. I think its the pecking order we have arranged for ourselves..and let's not underestimate the actual physical feelings that we define as 'love' as opposed to 'like'.

I agree - people want different things for their lives or in their lives and the definition of 'love' may be unique to each one - generally speaking though, I tend to think that most of us see love as committment in one way or another and there is nothing wrong with that. Baby chicks that follow their momma or bear cubs that stay with their mother for quite some time, might not label it love but it is committment nonetheless.

sammieswife.

gumby

....well I guess I ain't gonna be hittin Gary then ...am I now?

Gary,as always...I know where you are coming from

There is conditional love for those inside the circle...you remain inside or the love stops.

Sammieswife,

Does the love REALLY stop? Does a mother who now shuns her daughter really not love her daughter anymore? Or....is it rather a matter of she can't SHOW her love anymore?

I suppose this religion can be powerful enough to instill a loathing for a loved one to the point the love dies. This is scary for me to think about and kind of a new thought for me too. .....the fact that brainwashing can "wash away" love.

I guess I'll let more of you comment and maybe learn something.Go gor it Gary

Gumby

garybuss

Can a person feel love and behave hateful (full of hate)? Sure, they are called schizophrenics.

Take it out of context to understand it. Maslow related to food, that works for me. Instead of using the word "love" use the word "fed". If you are hungry and I say I fed you but I didn't give you anything to eat, did I feed you? How about if I say I fed you but I didn't feed you . . . do you feel fed? Why not?

Feeding someone is action (behavior), so is love. Can feeding someone be done with the wrong behavior? Nope! Neither can love. Follow me?

sammielee24

Does the love REALLY stop? Does a mother who now shuns her daughter really not love her daughter anymore? Or....is it rather a matter of she can't SHOW her love anymore?
I suppose this religion can be powerful enough to instill a loathing for a loved one to the point the love dies. This is scary for me to think about and kind of a new thought for me too. .....the fact that brainwashing can "wash away" love.

There is no doubt that this can and does happen. First - as we can ascertain - for most people love is behaviour so if you don't behave in a 'loving' manner then how can one believe that you 'love' them. If a mother can halt that behaviour (and I've seen it happen pretty instantaneously) but still mouth the words 'I love you' then most often the person will turn around and just say 'it's just a word' because there are no actions combined with it. People who are df'd are for the most part treated as loathesome by Witnesses. They are essentially the scum of the earth and while many can say 'gee, I felt for them'...most do nothing with that feeling and pretty well ignore the person totally. That same attitude remains when people are reinstated to the organization - they are still treated for the most part as crud. The action/word disfellowshipping brings with it a fear, curiousity and loathing for the person - regardless of what they've done, so yes - a loyal Witness will allow those feelings to overide anything else they might have felt for the person in order to remain in good standing with Jehovah. A JW only loves on condition and when you snap those conditions you snap the love. That's what good brainwashing does to a person. sammieswife.

gumby

If you are hungry and I say I fed you but I didn't give you anything to eat, did I feed you? How about if I say I fed you but I didn't feed you . . . do you feel fed? Why not?

Gary.....if I call my mom and tell her I love her and I cry with her over the phone about things, then tell her again I love her so much.......she feels loved. She hears it in my voice and fells it in her emotions.

I can tell her all day long on the phone and tell her I ate lunch for her so she doesn't need to worry about eatin lunch....and she'll still feel hungary if she doesn't eat.

Do you think you just made a good comparison?

Gumby

Shunning and Friendship...two different things.

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