Shunning and Friendship...two different things.

by gumby 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  carla

  Oh I would agree that many if not most do it because they think it is truly the right thing to do. What I do not understand is that so few actually try to find out if it is truly what God wants. So here we must decide if it victim or willing victim.

  Are there less destructive ways to show disapproval for ones choices in life? For example, I know a Christian couple that were very disappointed when their son moved in with his girlfriend. They consider this living in sin. Now, if they were jw I would imagine they would be required to shun this son (after the jc when elders found out). But instead the son and girlfriend are allowed at the parents home anytime. The parents however will not be 'entertained' at the son and gf house. I am not trying to open up a discussion on living in 'sin' here. Just trying to point out that the parents are able to show the disappointment and religious beliefs to their adult son and mantain a relationship with both the son and most likely their future daughter in law. The parents in this case wish maintain a relationship to further be an influence in the lives of these two young people. How could they show anything if they no longer spoke to them? How could they be a 'light to the world' if they hid away their love for their child? The gf sees the relationship between the husband and wife and is quite taken by it. She sees love, friendship, and the continuous love for their child. In doing so, the bf & gf are thinking marriage and what that really all entails. None of this would be possible if the parents had shunned the son. The son and gf are talking about things most young people don't even think of before marriage, children, faith, money, resolving disputes, even holidays and family traditions.

  It's just all so maddening. The pain I see due to shunning and of course all the rest. We hit our collective heads against the wall and ask why? Always hoping to find the magic bullet that will open their eyes, and it doesn't exist. So we plug along always hoping.
• 

  gumby

  Maybe I'm naive or expecting too much. Maybe I'm just still angry at my own parents for never figuring out how they had been suckered by the JW organization.

  JWs are trained to love the organization above all else

  Hi Jamele,

  I'm in agreement with your above statement.....but question your bottom statement.

  First, I feel many speak things they really do not mean about families who shun them because they are hurt so badly. However, I'm beginning to believe a good healthy love can become twisted and warped for many.....but not all witnesses.

  Yes dubs are trained to "love" the organisation above everything else, but that love isn't the love we have for one another, our mom's and dad's, mates, and kids. Loyalty to the Organisation is out of fear and guilt. Fear you will displease Jehovah if you go beyond what the society suggests, and horrible guilt if you do so. Many love the brotherhood...but not the "organisation" ....whatever the hell that really means.( at least not in the way we love humans)

  In proof of this, if the society said you could now welcome back with open arm all those who left the witnesses because they no longer wish to be Jehovah's Witnesses, they'd all leap for joy and calling relatives and friends they miss and wish to contact.

  Many have made such pains in the asses of themselves that some family may not want back their lost ones and have became enemies. I hope never to be one of these.

  Gumby
• 

  garybuss

  If a person can love and still do harm, could Hitler's SS really been feeling "love" while they marched women and children into the gas chambers at Auschwitz? What's the difference between feeling love while snubbing someone, or beating them, or directing them into a gas chamber?
  
  The Witnesses taught us hate is love. They called it "Godly love." Look it up on the Watch Tower CD.
  
  Realty check time . . . hate is hate, and love is love, and both are behaviors.
  
  Gotta go sharpen my lawnmower:-) Be back later.
  
  
  
• 

  gumby

  Gary...perhaps we need a thread on everyones view of what they feel love is. The problem we are having here is defining love.

  If you're nice to a strange child, that's love.

  Gary...that is BEING loving. What if 2 weeks later you found out that child who was a stranger to you that you were nice to... was killed by a car? Would you grieve for that child like you would for your daughter if it were her? Of course not. Your love for your daughter is much greater than the loving "act" you performed with the stranger child.

  Are these two types of love equal....or does love have a broad spectrum that cannot be difined to a point all agree to?

  Gumby
• 

  Jamelle

  Hello Gumby,

  I'm not sure what to say to your comments. You've raised a question in my mind as to whether you can really say JWs "love" the organization. You are right in that the whole experience for many of them is wrapped up in guilt and fear.

  When I look back on the years I was in, and the years since I've been out, I just didn't see anything I could call love among the JWs I knew. It was all on the surface. Scratch the veneer too deep and you'd better watch out because you wouldn't like what you'd find.

  Others, yourself among them obviously, have had different experiences. Just sharing my thoughts, for what they are worth...
• 

  sammielee24

  Gotta agree Gary - love is love -

  we can delude ourselves all we want when we are cut off and shunned by our families that they love us but in the end if they refuse to talk to us, eat with us, walk with us, have us in their homes and never see us again, it ain't love.

  I think from what I've seen - that JW's are incapable of deep love, loyalty and friendship...for some people it's easier to give your life up to someone else, hand over the reigns as it were and simply go throught the motions doing what you're told. It's safe. You know what is expected of you. You know the boundaries. You automated. You feel safe.
• 

  fullofdoubtnow

  Carla, I have to agree with you on this point:

  When I saw a disfellowshipped person coming to the assembly or hall and this one looked like they were hurt but really trying to "get back in", I wanted to go hug them and welcome them, thank them for coming and trying so hard......but I couldn't.-----------------Yes you could. You made a choice not to. You and all other jw's make a conscience decision to care more for your own standing in the cong and loyalty to a publshing company

  I have seen more than a few people who came to the kh trying to get back into the org. They had to sit at the back, were ignored by everyone and couldn't even speak to members of their own family for fear of reprisals. Some of them had been friends of mine, and I know that deep down I wanted to speak to them, to encourage them to come back, but I didn't, I joined in the shunning with everyone else. I found it uncomfortable, but I still did it because it was expected of me, so I did indeed make a conscience decision to obey the wts rather than my own feelings. The fact that I chose to ignore this doctrine and continue to speak to a da'd friend is one of the main reasons I am no longer a jw. At the time I had some strong counsel from the elders, and the choice seemed to be either I could act like a normal, rational human being would when meeting a friend, or be a jw, being both was not an option. I fail to see where love comes into that kind of counsel.
• 

  gumby

  The parents say they love both their children, but because #2 is DF'd they have to follow some stupid man made rule that says they cannot have any contact with their second son. What kind of love is that?

  Here's my question.

  If both kids died....would they grieve less for the Dfed one? Do they really "love" the unbaptised son MORE than the DFed one?...Or, do they only ACT in that manner because of organisational/religious beliefs? Were talking ACTING and FEELING in this thread...and that seems to be the difference.....to me anyway.

  Some are under the impression the JW mindset, can rule out "natural love" as we all assume love to be, and that these ones do not know what real love is. They did at one time perhaps know how to love, but they've lost the ability/will to do so now that they are witnesses.

  Is that how some here feel?

  Gumby
• 

  tall penguin

  Wow, I leave for a few hours and come back to a full fledged discussion on the nature of love. Very interesting folks. I don't have much to say at this point. I think though that this comment by Gary is one of the truest for me:
  "This is one reason so many people have such a hard time finding love. They don't know what it is."
  It's difficult to find something outside of ourselves that we can't locate within ourself. Until we can know love for ourselves, it is a challenge to recognize it in someone else.
  Damn it, where's James Thomas when ya need him?! :)
  tall penguin
• 

  itsallgoodnow

  It's all about what you or they love more, the religion? or their family/friends? Usually, faithful JWs are expected to love their religion more. Who is to say they would have shown you any love if they weren't asked not to? I think the "marking" people do is a form of disfellowshipping, and I receive it from some of my family. No body of elders told them to treat me that way. Are they doing it because they are trained to hate what they see as disobedience? Or is it because they somehow think tough love will help me turn it around? Regardless, they think I'm not good enough for them, but I think they are not good enough for me. It's not love, it's not hate, it's just people struggling for control over other people, and I'm not playing that game.